View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #161
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I totally, completely get what you're saying, especially with the vectors (go trig!), but I have to disagree with the government part. The politicians are allowing themselves to be bought, and the resulting corporatism and protectionism screws up the way the game is supposed to be fairly played. Why we will prosecute Bradley Manning for treason for exposing war crimes, while our very politicians are guilty of high treason for being bought and sold like packs of cigarettes, is beyond me, but that's another topic.
    But government's contribution to the direction of our economy is the same as any other's - direction x power. The fact that the direction is being (somewhat) guided by businesses paying money to candidates - or even advertising (politics) on their own! - doesn't change that.

    I tend to agree with your assessment of business interfering with politics and like a couple of your solutions. ((I've said for years we should sell the airwaves and broadcast licenses partly in terms of political airtime.)) Sadly, I don't see business interference changing anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The fact is, some people's labor simply isn't going to be worth a fine standard of living. Let me give you an example. Let's say I open a fast food restaurant, Alpaca Burgers (No Alpacas used). I hire a burger flipper. I've determined at 20 burgers an hour, he earns the company a gain of $10 per hour. I then offer him a job at $8 per hour. $10 is the absolute maximum value of his worth to me, after that I'm losing money. Now, for the socialists that live in a dream world, let's propose a scenario. $8 an hour really isn't much to live on, so let's double the pay of every low end worker, and I'm not allowed to lay anybody off. So he's making $16/hr now. An Alpaca burger that used to cost $5 will now cost near $10. Every other item in our society produced by low end labor will also nearly double in price.

    Looking at the net standard of living that this guy could afford before, and after, the raise, it really wouldn't have changed much. If he wanted to go take his family out for a dinner, what maybe used to cost $40, may now be $80, because all of the restaurant staff, the cook, the waitress, and so on, are now making double.

    Let's also now mention that the middle and upper class that used to buy my Alpaca Burgers are no longer interested in paying $10 a burger, and I now go out of business. That burger flipper no longer has a job. The only way for someone to improve their standard of living is to improve their worth and in turn earn more. Distorting the nature of things and paying someone more than their worth will only bring everything tumbling down.
    You'll get no argument from me there.

    But people still need room and board and at least a small amount of entertainment in some form. (Fun doesn't have to cost a lot of money, though.) The biggest problem most poor people have is the stigma that's attached to their situation. Americans need to understand exactly what you're saying, that some people simply cannot be better than they are - at least not economically. If we could get rid of the stigma, the constant Keep Up With the Jones' (KUWTJ) attitude that gets hammered into our heads 24/7, things would be a lot better.


    I'm not gonna' hold my breath, though. At the heart of changing the KUWTJ attitude is the same problem as stopping businesses from meddling in government. SCOTUS says we can't stop any individual - even corporations - from voicing their opinion publicly, which includes commercials both for products and candidates/policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I get that there are some really ****ed up big businesses out there, totally get it, but that is not the majority of businesses.
    I agree, it's not the majority of businesses - not even close - but laws still must exist to protect people (workers) from that very small number.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-23-13 at 07:11 AM.
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  2. #162
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    But government's contribution to the direction of our economy is the same as any other's - direction x power. The fact that the direction is being (somewhat) guided by businesses paying money to candidates - or even advertising (politics) on their own! - doesn't change the situation.

    I agree, it's not the majority - not even close - but laws still must exist to protect people (workers) from that very small number.
    This is where we're disagreeing. The government is supposed to be the rule moderator, who sets up the rules of the game so that every player is on the same level, then to let the game be played. Instead what we have is the rule moderator making rules that favor one set of people instead of being equal. The moderators are slipping money from the monopoly bank to some players to make them richer and more powerful, providing mulligans, and designing the game to **** the little guy.

    As long as we let the government play master market manipulator, they're going to favor the people who pay them most. Personally I'd like to outlaw any kind of campaign contributions or favors promised to all politicians, and any politician that gets caught in dereliction of their duty by accepting funds from special interests, should be hung on the steps of capital hill. It's high treason and we tolerate it.

    I'd like to finish my point off with a quote:
    "Don't hate the player, hate the game" (And specifically those who designed the game)
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  3. #163
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Not giving somebody something they want is not force, no matter how hard you try to make it that way. I've been thinking about it, and the only logical conclusion is that your REAL issue with the world is the fundamental way that it works. People need food and shelter to live, and they need to go out and work to achieve those things. If a family were stranded on a tropical island, they would have to get up, and go look for food. They would have to try to cut down trees and form a house. It's all very labor intensive. If they don't want to work and just sit on the beach waiting for help, it's not going to go very well for them. That's simply the way it works.

    Now, a businessman coming along and saying "Hey, I could use somebody to help me chop down trees, I'll pay you X amount to do this for me", the worker can take it or leave it. It is NOT the fault of the businessman that the person needs the money. The offer would never have even existed without the businessman, and the worker would've had to find something else to do.

    I'm sorry, waas, but nobody OWES you a job. You act like people owe you ****, and they don't. If a McDonald's burger flipper makes the business a $8 an hour, why would McDonald's pay him more than $8 an hour? Why would anybody hire someone for a negative gain?

    If someone is not being paid enough, they need to work on increasing their value instead of bitching and moaning about it.
    This is pathetic. You can't form a cohesive argument, so you start attacking my motivations. No, nobody owes me a job and that is not the point. What I'm presenting to you is the irony of our current business structure - one where the employer lives off the labors of a worker, not only stealing from him, but controlling the conditions of his life. And we as a society don't value the contributions those that keep us afloat, but the intellectual property that holds one class above another.

  4. #164
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by jschie View Post
    Anarchism is something special in Libertarian.

    An Anarchist is a Libertarian, thatīs true,
    but a Libertarian donīt have to be an Anarchist.

    I recognize Anarchists as a Libertarian Kommunism, set more to kommunism than to libertarian.

    But also an Anarchist is allowed to have employees.
    And if you have employees you have power over them, very restricted in anarchism but you have.
    You clearly didn't read the paper.

  5. #165
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    No, aggression - the initiation of force - is against libertarian morality.


    An employer "exerting power" over employees is not necessarily (and indeed, is unlikely to be) aggression, especially given that employment is voluntary, not compulsory. The association is voluntary and can be terminated by either party at any time.

    So what is an example of exerting power, by your meaning? "Please go do this thing I'm paying you to go do" is technically an exertion of power, but it certainly isn't aggressive.
    The morality of a libertarian, though we may disagree on how to categorize it, is one that pushes free association and egalitarianism as a policy measure. Equality does not exist where one stands above another.

  6. #166
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    So no one can pay you to do a job in "a libertarian society," is that what you're saying? Because, well, no.

    You're still talking about a voluntary association, a contract, an exchange in which both parties are providing something the other party wants.

  7. #167
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    So no one can pay you to do a job in "a libertarian society," is that what you're saying? Because, well, no.

    You're still talking about a voluntary association, a contract, an exchange in which both parties are providing something the other party wants.
    That's exactly what he's saying. His definition, apparently, of libertarianism, is the government taking all of the money from the citizens at the point of a gun, then redistributing it all evenly so nobody has to be "coerced" into working. It's actually quite hilarious, don't stop him, he's on a roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    The morality of a libertarian, though we may disagree on how to categorize it, is one that pushes free association and egalitarianism as a policy measure. Equality does not exist where one stands above another.
    Yes, it is, by entering into a voluntary work contract you are using your right to freely associate. You are also not discriminated against while doing so because it is an egalitarian system. You're trying to claim that the government stepping in and forcing the employer to pay more isn't coercion or force. In reality, it defies the entirety of libertarianism. So sorry, bud, you're going to have to hate libertarianism for what it is, not for what it isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #168
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That's exactly what he's saying. His definition, apparently, of libertarianism, is the government taking all of the money from the citizens at the point of a gun, then redistributing it all evenly so nobody has to be "coerced" into working. It's actually quite hilarious, don't stop him, he's on a roll.
    Wait, what? That CAN'T be what he's saying... That would be completely absurd. That would involve permanent and extreme coercion.

  9. #169
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So you agree 100% that SCOTUS has never made a decision you disagree with? LOL! I know better than that, yet, that IS the law of the land whether you like it or not.
    In this case your argument is one of the things the founders where fighting against.

  10. #170
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    This is pathetic. You can't form a cohesive argument, so you start attacking my motivations. No, nobody owes me a job and that is not the point. What I'm presenting to you is the irony of our current business structure - one where the employer lives off the labors of a worker, not only stealing from him, but controlling the conditions of his life. And we as a society don't value the contributions those that keep us afloat, but the intellectual property that holds one class above another.
    Really? This current structure is where the employer steals from the worker? How is that possible when the employer is the one who is paying the worker? How is that possible if the worker voluntarily applied for the job? How does the employer control the conditions of the worker's life when the worker can leave at anytime?
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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