View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #151
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    I see, so as long as it's not the government infringing upon liberty, you're okay with it.

    And a market like the one you describes does not exist. In reality, competition for jobs exists, and due to the need to sustain yourself, workers will take any position that helps them earns them a salary.
    And only a fool stops looking for a job while they are in a job they don't like or a job they feel like doesn't pay them enough. That is the other side of the coin that you ignore.
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  2. #152
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    How do you gather that? The second bit, that is.
    2 ways, professionals are marrying later and more often to professionals, in their same work area (think doctors marrying doctors).
    Two doctors marrying each other can create a much larger household income.
    Not only that but college educated, higher income people tend to stay married longer and/or seek divorce less often.

    Where as, on the other hand, we're having more and more single parent households, with children.
    It creates an illusion of household wage stagnation.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Is that a joke? Any entity exerting force over another is strictly against libertarian morality.

    A short read:
    Anarchist Communism: Its Basis and Principles
    Anarchism is something special in Libertarian.

    An Anarchist is a Libertarian, thatīs true,
    but a Libertarian donīt have to be an Anarchist.

    I recognize Anarchists as a Libertarian Kommunism, set more to kommunism than to libertarian.

    But also an Anarchist is allowed to have employees.
    And if you have employees you have power over them, very restricted in anarchism but you have.
    Last edited by jschie; 01-23-13 at 02:25 AM.

  4. #154
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Is that a joke? Any entity exerting force over another is strictly against libertarian morality.
    No, aggression - the initiation of force - is against libertarian morality.


    An employer "exerting power" over employees is not necessarily (and indeed, is unlikely to be) aggression, especially given that employment is voluntary, not compulsory. The association is voluntary and can be terminated by either party at any time.

    So what is an example of exerting power, by your meaning? "Please go do this thing I'm paying you to go do" is technically an exertion of power, but it certainly isn't aggressive.

  5. #155
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yeah, that guy should clearly be fired.
    So you agree 100% that SCOTUS has never made a decision you disagree with? LOL! I know better than that, yet, that IS the law of the land whether you like it or not.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Is that a joke? Any entity exerting force over another is strictly against libertarian morality.
    Not giving somebody something they want is not force, no matter how hard you try to make it that way. I've been thinking about it, and the only logical conclusion is that your REAL issue with the world is the fundamental way that it works. People need food and shelter to live, and they need to go out and work to achieve those things. If a family were stranded on a tropical island, they would have to get up, and go look for food. They would have to try to cut down trees and form a house. It's all very labor intensive. If they don't want to work and just sit on the beach waiting for help, it's not going to go very well for them. That's simply the way it works.

    Now, a businessman coming along and saying "Hey, I could use somebody to help me chop down trees, I'll pay you X amount to do this for me", the worker can take it or leave it. It is NOT the fault of the businessman that the person needs the money. The offer would never have even existed without the businessman, and the worker would've had to find something else to do.

    I'm sorry, waas, but nobody OWES you a job. You act like people owe you ****, and they don't. If a McDonald's burger flipper makes the business a $8 an hour, why would McDonald's pay him more than $8 an hour? Why would anybody hire someone for a negative gain?

    If someone is not being paid enough, they need to work on increasing their value instead of bitching and moaning about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Yeah, happy, that's the word.
    If you're not happy with your job, you should probably do something about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  7. #157
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Not giving somebody something they want is not force, no matter how hard you try to make it that way. I've been thinking about it, and the only logical conclusion is that your REAL issue with the world is the fundamental way that it works. People need food and shelter to live, and they need to go out and work to achieve those things. If a family were stranded on a tropical island, they would have to get up, and go look for food. They would have to try to cut down trees and form a house. It's all very labor intensive. If they don't want to work and just sit on the beach waiting for help, it's not going to go very well for them. That's simply the way it works.

    Now, a businessman coming along and saying "Hey, I could use somebody to help me chop down trees, I'll pay you X amount to do this for me", the worker can take it or leave it. It is NOT the fault of the businessman that the person needs the money. The offer would never have even existed without the businessman, and the worker would've had to find something else to do.

    I'm sorry, waas, but nobody OWES you a job. You act like people owe you ****, and they don't. If a McDonald's burger flipper makes the business a $8 an hour, why would McDonald's pay him more than $8 an hour? Why would anybody hire someone for a negative gain?

    If someone is not being paid enough, they need to work on increasing their value instead of bitching and moaning about it.

    If you're not happy with your job, you should probably do something about it.
    While I might agree with you in general, you have painted a false illusion here. Your story assumes there is an alternative to working for the businessman cutting down trees. IRL, there really isn't an alternative. In fact, that was one of the foundations of Locke's philosophy, that everyone had a commons they could live off of - but the commons he was talking about are now gone. You no longer have the option to build a house from logs on a vacant piece of land (without somehow buying the land) and if you start picking apples to eat (from apple trees you haven't somehow bought) chances are you'll land in jail for stealing and trespassing.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    While I might agree with you in general, you have painted a false illusion here. Your story assumes there is an alternative to working for the businessman cutting down trees. IRL, there really isn't an alternative. In fact, that was one of the foundations of Locke's philosophy, that everyone had a commons they could live off of - but the commons he was talking about are now gone. You no longer have the option to build a house from logs on a vacant piece of land (without somehow buying the land) and if you start picking apples to eat (from apple trees you haven't somehow bought) chances are you'll land in jail for stealing and trespassing.
    Although true, it doesn't change the premise. I don't see how for instance, I could be held responsible for the nature of our economy, or that I'm "exploiting" a worker, by offering him a job.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #159
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Although true, it doesn't change the premise. I don't see how for instance, I could be held responsible for the nature of our economy, or that I'm "exploiting" a worker, by offering him a job.
    Except in very rare cases no one industry, and certainly not one business, can be held "responsible" for our economy. The economy is (usually) molded by the combined power of the players involved and which way they are moving - the sum of their vectors (direction x economic power), if you will. This includes government and it's economic power as well but "government" isn't individually responsible any more than businesses. They all add their vector to the equation.

    As far as exploiting workers go, I can see where someone who disagrees with capitalism would see it as worker exploitation because there are no other alternatives. In America we are forced to either live on handouts (from whatever source) or participate in the capitalist system. Generally, we're forced to participate in the System even if we live off handouts since we (usually) must buy food. While you and I have no problem with this because we accept the system, others who disagree would certainly see it differently.


    And just as a note, some workers are exploited - especially during the worst of economic times.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-23-13 at 06:13 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  10. #160
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Except in very rare cases no one industry, and certainly not one business, can be held "responsible" for our economy. The economy is (usually) molded by the combined power of the players involved and which way they are moving - the sum of their vectors (direction x economic power), if you will. This includes government and it's economic power as well but "government" isn't individually responsible any more than businesses. They all add their vector to the equation.

    As far as exploiting workers go, I can see where someone who disagrees with capitalism would see it as worker exploitation because there are no other alternatives. In America we are forced to either live on handouts (from whatever source) or participate in the capitalist system. Generally, we're forced to participate in the System even if we live off handouts since we (usually) must buy food. While you and I have no problem with this because we accept the system, others who disagree would certainly see it differently.


    And just as a note, some workers are exploited - especially during the worst of economic times.
    I totally, completely get what you're saying, especially with the vectors (go trig!), but I have to disagree with the government part. The politicians are allowing themselves to be bought, and the resulting corporatism and protectionism screws up the way the game is supposed to be fairly played. Why we will prosecute Bradley Manning for treason for exposing war crimes, while our very politicians are guilty of high treason for being bought and sold like packs of cigarettes, is beyond me, but that's another topic.

    The fact is, some people's labor simply isn't going to be worth a fine standard of living. Let me give you an example. Let's say I open a fast food restaurant, Alpaca Burgers (No Alpacas used). I hire a burger flipper. I've determined at 20 burgers an hour, he earns the company a gain of $10 per hour. I then offer him a job at $8 per hour. $10 is the absolute maximum value of his worth to me, after that I'm losing money. Now, for the socialists that live in a dream world, let's propose a scenario. $8 an hour really isn't much to live on, so let's double the pay of every low end worker, and I'm not allowed to lay anybody off. So he's making $16/hr now. An Alpaca burger that used to cost $5 will now cost near $10. Every other item in our society produced by low end labor will also nearly double in price.

    Looking at the net standard of living that this guy could afford before, and after, the raise, it really wouldn't have changed much. If he wanted to go take his family out for a dinner, what maybe used to cost $40, may now be $80, because all of the restaurant staff, the cook, the waitress, and so on, are now making double.

    Let's also now mention that the middle and upper class that used to buy my Alpaca Burgers are no longer interested in paying $10 a burger, and I now go out of business. That burger flipper no longer has a job. The only way for someone to improve their standard of living is to improve their worth and in turn earn more. Distorting the nature of things and paying someone more than their worth will only bring everything tumbling down.

    I get that there are some really ****ed up big businesses out there, totally get it, but that is not the majority of businesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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