View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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    17 56.67%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #121
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If nothing else you have decreased the value of the well.
    When the well is found to be poisoned then the value of the well will decrease. If however no one found it was poisioned in which you seem to be implying the assumed value will be unaffected. I could sell this poisioned well to anyone I desire assuming I have ownership and I could sell it as if it wasn't poisoned and the value is what it otherwise would be.

    In essence you have stolen from another unless it's your well.
    How did I steal something from the community??

    If you're passing it off as safe then you're misrepresenting it to your gain and another's detriment.
    Indeed.

    If it's a community well then you've harmed the community.
    Assuming they drink of it, yes.

  2. #122
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know any libertarians that say a company should be able to poison wells.
    "Am I wrong? You are standing there unharmed next to a water hole that is poisoned. Your rights were violated how?"

    Henrin's post a couple pages back. In response to my comment that my right to drink water that isn't poisoned with mercury trumps a companies right to put mercury into the water.

    I also noted that punishing a company AFTER they put mercury in the water ain't really a good call. Ask the Japs.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  3. #123
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    "Am I wrong? You are standing there unharmed next to a water hole that is poisoned. Your rights were violated how?"

    Henrin's post a couple pages back. In response to my comment that my right to drink water that isn't poisoned with mercury trumps a companies right to put mercury into the water.

    I also noted that punishing a company AFTER they put mercury in the water ain't really a good call. Ask the Japs.
    I don't know the situation, but I find it hard to believe that he means what you think he means, but nevertheless, he doesn't speak for all libertarians. We can't all be lumped into a neat model. Most of us are pretty reasonable. A company obviously shouldn't be able to poison drinking wells.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #124
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know the situation, but I find it hard to believe that he means what you think he means, but nevertheless, he doesn't speak for all libertarians. We can't all be lumped into a neat model. Most of us are pretty reasonable. A company obviously shouldn't be able to poison drinking wells.
    That's why I TRY to tread lightly when debating about libertarianism. To some extent, I would be considered one, on the minarchist side. I, like you, want to destroy the relationship ( I call citizen ****ing) that our business and our government currently enjoy. What I'm not willing to do, however, is "throw the kids out with the bad bath water". I think it all comes down to campaign reform. SERIOUS campaign reform. Like...NO money in public campaigns. If one person gets a 5 minute spot on CNN, then they ALL get that same spot, if they want it. I would like to find some way to...I guess, SOCIALIZE our political process. I would like a career in politics to be NOT such a great prospect, in terms of money making and perks. I want politicians to go down that path because it's what they truly, really want to do, not because it's what daddy did, and it's a pretty sweet gig.

    But I hold out absolutely no hope of stuff like that ever happening. I think the only way these things will change is through radical, violent action. And radical violent action won't occur until the majority of americans lose their since of contentment. Fact is, most folks know more about their favorite football teams, or american idol contestants, than they do about anyone, ANYONE, they have EVER voted for in their entire lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  5. #125
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    That's why I TRY to tread lightly when debating about libertarianism. To some extent, I would be considered one, on the minarchist side. I, like you, want to destroy the relationship ( I call citizen ****ing) that our business and our government currently enjoy. What I'm not willing to do, however, is "throw the kids out with the bad bath water". I think it all comes down to campaign reform. SERIOUS campaign reform. Like...NO money in public campaigns. If one person gets a 5 minute spot on CNN, then they ALL get that same spot, if they want it. I would like to find some way to...I guess, SOCIALIZE our political process. I would like a career in politics to be NOT such a great prospect, in terms of money making and perks. I want politicians to go down that path because it's what they truly, really want to do, not because it's what daddy did, and it's a pretty sweet gig.

    But I hold out absolutely no hope of stuff like that ever happening. I think the only way these things will change is through radical, violent action. And radical violent action won't occur until the majority of americans lose their since of contentment. Fact is, most folks know more about their favorite football teams, or american idol contestants, than they do about anyone, ANYONE, they have EVER voted for in their entire lives.
    My proposal was to outlaw all campaign contributions of every kind. Each candidate would be given a voucher with a set number of funds he can use for advertising and campaigning. To help finance this, certain uses for the funding could be tax deductible. For instance, say a candidate wanted to advertise on CNN, CNN could get a tax break from the government equal to the cost of the spot. This would force the candidates to run a tight budget and stretch their dollars to the fullest, which would be an amazingly important display to the people to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #126
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    My proposal was to outlaw all campaign contributions of every kind. Each candidate would be given a voucher with a set number of funds he can use for advertising and campaigning. To help finance this, certain uses for the funding could be tax deductible. For instance, say a candidate wanted to advertise on CNN, CNN could get a tax break from the government equal to the cost of the spot. This would force the candidates to run a tight budget and stretch their dollars to the fullest, which would be an amazingly important display to the people to see.
    Exactly. Doing this would have a domino effect over every aspect of american life. To the extent that, I don't even think self indentifying as one ism or another really matters, in the face of plane, simple...election reform. Get decent, half way honest people into offices around this country, and political party lines won't matter, because, even under the WORST of circumstances, it'll still be better than what we got now. Even the most HARDCORE socialist governor could be only as socialist as his constituents allow.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  7. #127
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I'm not liquidating them of any responsibility, I'm just placing the majority of the blame where it's due, with the government. Big business and government are in bed with each other, and I'd like to destroy that relationship. You'd like to give one of them more power.
    No, I do not want to give the government more power. I simply want re-allocate their power.

    In what world are your politicians actually accountable for their actions? Not in the US of A, that's for sure. Most politicians run on promises, then never even attempt to make any of them happen. The government has a monopoly on violence and force, businesses do not. Their only way to get violence and force is through the government, which our politicians readily give them for the right price.
    And what elects business owners? Being born into means, perhaps? Look, I'm no fan of the US government, but when forced to choose between it and the PS, I'll choose the government.

    I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how Kinkos is exerting power over Joe Bob by coming to an agreement on labor and payment. Have you ever even been to a job interview? I recently decided to go back to work, and have been in a series of interviews. Do you know what happens there? After we interview each other to decide if they want me, and I want them, we begin negotiations for payment for my labor. They suggest a price, I may suggest a higher price. We can't go forward until we agree on this, and at any point I can walk away. If my kids are starving, I can take the job for a ****tier amount, then use the job as leverage to get a better one. Only socialists sit in their jobs and cry that they're being manipulated.
    Have I not explained this to you in my last dozen posts? In a capitalist, free market country with a large gap between rich and poor and a competitive market, one class ends up being exploited by another. The need to generate income, combined with competition for positions forces workers to take whatever positions they can get. If Mr. Bob quits his job, chances are that he won't find a better one, if he's employed at all. In reality, where competition exists, Joe may be stuck in his position, advancement depending upon the will of his employer.

    The history of an all-powerful government, especially a socialist one, most certainly does not agree with you.
    I don't advocate for an all-powerful government, much less governments along the lines of the Soviet Union. And labor/environmental history is what agrees with me.

  8. #128
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    And what elects business owners? Being born into means, perhaps? Look, I'm no fan of the US government, but when forced to choose between it and the PS, I'll choose the government.
    The fact that you see owning a business as absolutely anything even remotely similar to being voted into office shows that you have either no respect, or no understanding for property rights, and merit based rewards.


    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Have I not explained this to you in my last dozen posts? In a capitalist, free market country with a large gap between rich and poor and a competitive market, one class ends up being exploited by another. The need to generate income, combined with competition for positions forces workers to take whatever positions they can get. If Mr. Bob quits his job, chances are that he won't find a better one, if he's employed at all. In reality, where competition exists, Joe may be stuck in his position, advancement depending upon the will of his employer.
    Oh yeah, I get that, but what you still haven't explained is how any business owner is responsible for the way the system is. They're just players in the game. You demonize absolutely everybody who owns a business, when most business owners aren't the monopoly man you make them out to be. Stop blaming our entire system on business.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #129
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    When the well is found to be poisoned then the value of the well will decrease. If however no one found it was poisioned in which you seem to be implying the assumed value will be unaffected. I could sell this poisioned well to anyone I desire assuming I have ownership and I could sell it as if it wasn't poisoned and the value is what it otherwise would be.

    How did I steal something from the community??

    Indeed.

    Assuming they drink of it, yes.
    If you're trying to argue it's OK to be a criminal unless you get caught then we have nothing further to discuss.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-22-13 at 04:00 PM.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you're trying to argue it's OK to be a criminal unless you get caught then we have nothing further to discuss.
    Nope, not doing that. I was talking of the value of the well.

    I'm sure you would argue one isn't a criminal until they get caught - even if they rape the mayor's daughter in the middle of Main St at noon Wednesday.
    Nope

    Criminal- A person who has committed a crime. That would be a bit hard.

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