View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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  • Yes

    17 56.67%
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    13 43.33%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #111
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    If you'd like to believe, that calling my arguments crap and liquidating the private sector of responsibility addressed any single point, that's your choice.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1061376008
    I'm not liquidating them of any responsibility, I'm just placing the majority of the blame where it's due, with the government. Big business and government are in bed with each other, and I'd like to destroy that relationship. You'd like to give one of them more power.

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    In my mind, the problem lies in the power we've centralized within the private sector. While you see fit to hand them more, I find that with the appropriate tweaks, the government can reign them in.

    And it's the lesser of two evils. The government at least partially accountable, consisting of elected officials.
    In what world are your politicians actually accountable for their actions? Not in the US of A, that's for sure. Most politicians run on promises, then never even attempt to make any of them happen. The government has a monopoly on violence and force, businesses do not. Their only way to get violence and force is through the government, which our politicians readily give them for the right price.

    I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how Kinkos is exerting power over Joe Bob by coming to an agreement on labor and payment. Have you ever even been to a job interview? I recently decided to go back to work, and have been in a series of interviews. Do you know what happens there? After we interview each other to decide if they want me, and I want them, we begin negotiations for payment for my labor. They suggest a price, I may suggest a higher price. We can't go forward until we agree on this, and at any point I can walk away. If my kids are starving, I can take the job for a ****tier amount, then use the job as leverage to get a better one. Only socialists sit in their jobs and cry that they're being manipulated.


    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    If history agrees with me, I can't help but feel that way. It is not reality I bend to my ideas, but my ideas that bend to reality.
    The history of an all-powerful government, especially a socialist one, most certainly does not agree with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Because hunger is not voluntary and neither is homelessness. FDR put it this way.....

    "We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made."

    Obama touched on it in his inauguration speech today too....

    "The commitments we make to each other -- through Medicare, and Medicaid, and Social Security -- these things do not sap our initiative; they strengthen us," Obama said. "They do not make us a nation of takers; they free us to take the risks that make this country great."
    I realize that man is motivated to provide for one's family, clearly, as I do it myself. What I don't understand is how you can say that Kinkos is responsible for our economic situation, or how they are exerting force over workers. (Which is the premise of this thread) Without the government force to back them up, the company's do not have the power of coercion. I'd rather destroy this business-politics bond instead of empowering it like so many of you seem to be suggesting. Why would we give our corrupt government MORE power, when they've shown themselves to be irresponsible with the power they have?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #112
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    If food is located at the bottom of a cliff, and I am starving to death, is it a voluntary act to climb down to the food?


    I would argue no. I would argue that someone TRULY starving to death, has that choice made for them, biologically.

    That is the essence of what is being debated here.

    So, question to the OP...

    Are the average workers in the US starving to death, or dieing of thirst...or even in any DANGER of doing so, sans a job?

    And my answer to that is a resounding no. There are very very very few people in this country in danger of dying as a result of unemployment. You could call them the .001%, even.
    Buts that's only because of those Commie socialist safety nets. Without them, yes, people would starve from unemployment just like they did in the 30's.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And my right to not drink mercury poisoned water is defended and enforced by that very government, which impedes and eliminates a private companies' "right" to pollute the well.

    Waiting till AFTER I've been poisoned to do something about it is a tad late for me.
    That's the exact problem with the common libertarian stance. *thumbs up*
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #114
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's the exact problem with the common libertarian stance. *thumbs up*
    I don't know any libertarians that say a company should be able to poison wells.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  5. #115
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Am I wrong? You are standing there unharmed next to a water hole that is poisoned. Your rights were violated how?
    If nothing else you have decreased the value of the well. In essence you have stolen from another unless it's your well. If you're passing it off as safe then you're misrepresenting it to your gain and another's detriment. If it's a community well then you've harmed the community. There's a reason poisoning the well was once considered an act of war - and probably still is in many places. I sure wouldn't try it in Mali. I'm sure they'd teach you all about harm if they caught you at it ...
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #116
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It depends on the person in question. There are however general rules and usually speaking gifts do not motivate people.
    Of course gifts motivate people. or are you saying bribery doesn't work?!?!?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #117
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know any libertarians that say a company should be able to poison wells.
    I have, should I find the posts? (In addition to those by Henrin right here?) According to "them" it's none of <your/our> business what others do until someone is actually harmed. You can pollute all you want and as long as the guy downstream or downwind can't prove in a court of law that your pollution caused him harm then you're good to go!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #118
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Henrin;1061377912]Its great you had a point of your own to make, but my point was that freedom restricted by laws is a given.
    Any and all laws are a restriction on freedom...and if you think it's a given, then I must point out that THIS comment does not jive with...
    The fact is you can't restrict freedom and at the same time promote it.
    ...this comment. You contend that freedom with legal restrictions is a given. I would ask why? WHY must freedom be limited, no, inhibited, by laws? Do we not do this, impose this restriction on freedom, in order to promote a greater level of freedom? Seems to me, the idea flies just fine...
    The idea doesn't fly. When you punish people for a right violation you don't promote freedom, but restrict it and that is it.
    I restrict their freedom to violate other people's rights...those rights, by and by, being the enablers of THEIR freedom. Without rights, without those restrictions on freedom, very very very few people would ever actually be anything remotely resembling "free". See slavery.
    When you take measures to keep people safe from these right violations you don't promote or create anything, but just violate the rights of people for the benefit of safety.
    Much more than safety. If you think our rights exist only to keep us safe, then I gotta say...I over estimated you.
    I'm not really saying anything here that has anything to do with libertarianism, so you can drop that too.
    The core of what we are discussing has everything to do with libertarianism, and the primary difference between a minarchist, and an anarchist. Minarchists exist on the moral slippery slope of compromise, and some would call them (me) a small L libertarian, as in, not hardcore. The more hardcore libertarians adhere religiously to the NAP, which, when taken to the extremes that they (you?) often do, equals no government, since government is, and always will be, the single largest initiator of force/aggression against others. I put question marks after you, because I'm still not sure where you sit. Sorry if you're offended, I meant none.

    It being optional doesn't change the fact they worked for the income by providing you a lap dance. By all accounts you should pay them for the service, but yes, tips are optional as it stands.
    Not paying someone for services rendered, IE, an income, is not optional, and is illegal. Ergo, tips, which are completely optional, is not income. It is a gift. I know...splitting hairs. To compromise, I believe you are correct...gifts are NOT the most motivational thing out there. What motivates people are possibilities. The greater the odds of those possibilities coming to fruition, the more motivated people will be to achieve them. A stripper who thinks I am more likely to lay a big tip on her is gonna do more to impress me.



    Besides the first sentence it is just a repeat of the first part. Would you like me to take on the first sentence?[/QUOTE]To be honest, I don't even remember what the second bit was about now, and doesn't really matter. I'm pretty sure we've gone past it already.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #119
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Did the OP ever explain the point of this thread?

  10. #120
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    iguanaman;1061378001]So being a monopoly is what caused the rise of the great middle class?
    Yes. See current affairs. Over the past 20-30 years, other countries have more or less caught up, in terms of capabilities, and their workers are adding a key economic principle...COMPETITION. Enter the fall of the middle class union worker.
    You are the one failing history.
    Not really.
    It was not the growth alone that made us the envy of the world it was the fact that it encompassed all wage classes.
    No it didn't. It encompassed manufacturing. That this "success" spilled over into other markets...SLIGHTLY...is only to be expected...but hey, when you got a monopoly...it's easy money, so who cares, right?
    We exported that to all the nations of Europe via their new Constitutions along with the Social Contracts that you now try to destroy.
    Because they didn't have the means to produce it for themselves. Hence the monopoly on our part.
    Taxes are a means to an end. They pay the bills but thru progessive taxes we can also control the economy to favor growth over stagnation. Why has it been so hard to get any real growth in the economy in the last 35 years. Because median wages have been stagnant that long and consumers aren't spending, unless it is money they don't have.
    Taxes ARE a means to an end, but are they the BEST means to the BEST end? This is a serious question, not me prodding you. Fact is, our economy has flat line in the past couple decades for a WIDE variety of reasons, primary among them...COMPETITION. In other words, I am calling the 40s and 50s a BUBBLE, because that's exactly what it was. That bubble has been slowly deflating since about....say, 1974? Other nations have entered the scene. They rebuilt after the devestation, they have outfitted themselves, and are ready and willing to take on some of the manufacturing load. And as for us? Unions have priced american labor out of the market, to the extent that manufacturers would rather build ROBOTS to do the work. You don't deny that jobs are being outsourced, or handed over to robots, do you? So ask and answer the question...why now? Why in the last 20 years have jobs started really heading over seas? Did third world countries not exist prior to then? Did people in other countries not need jobs prior to then?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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