View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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  • Yes

    17 56.67%
  • No

    13 43.33%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #101
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    I have to say that this thread became very interesting once a certain individual stopped posting in it. Once Goshin and Kevin Kohler started posting, it made for interesting reading. And it's been civil for the most part.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  2. #102
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    I suppose I'll have to break this down for you. But just this once, cuz I gots to get to bed soon. This is what you said...

    "Except that isn't calling for freedom, is it? No, it holding that rights are violated by those actions and restricting freedom in the process because of it. Lets not humor the idea you can do both at the same time. "

    I made one word bold, because it's dead wrong. By giving up a certain level of liberty, we grant ourselves as a WHOLE, a greater level of liberty. You see, to me, guarding myself and my stuff all the time is NOT freedom. It sounds like a crappy life, constantly being on guard, on edge, etc. Having police frees me up from a LOT of that. Your counter is likely that we should self police. Well, we already do. Last time I looked, cops are US citizens. That we pay them from a collective fund only serves my second point...the greatest level of liberty for the whole, and not just for some. So, yes, you CAN do both at the same time. And once again...that's called compromise. We trade a little, to get a lot. You can quote Franklin all day long, but you'd be wasting your time.
    Its great you had a point of your own to make, but my point was that freedom restricted by laws is a given. It doesn't matter if its to protect rights or if it is provide people services. I'm not interested in quoting Franklin or dealing with this debate you desire to have. The fact is you can't restrict freedom and at the same time promote it. The idea doesn't fly. When you punish people for a right violation you don't promote freedom, but restrict it and that is it. When you take measures to keep people safe from these right violations you don't promote or create anything, but just violate the rights of people for the benefit of safety. I'm not really saying anything here that has anything to do with libertarianism, so you can drop that too.

    If it's income earned, why is it optional for me to offer it?
    It being optional doesn't change the fact they worked for the income by providing you a lap dance. By all accounts you should pay them for the service, but yes, tips are optional as it stands.

    Duly noted that you did not address the last portion of my post.
    Besides the first sentence it is just a repeat of the first part. Would you like me to take on the first sentence?

  3. #103
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It depends on the product, and the employee base. If someone has a great idea, and that idea generates a product which is in demand, but the product is easy to produce from menial labor, the labor of others is pretty cheap. Any old Joe can do the job. If the employee has nothing special to offer, he can be easily replaced. If Any old Joe wants to compete in the marketplace, then he has the option of coming up with a competing product and hiring his own laborers.
    This type of economic system was tried extensively in the late 1800's to the early 1900's. The results were less than satisfactory. We have had far better results with a more restrictive tax and regulation agenda. The postwar years saw the greatest growth the world has ever seen. It was because that growth happened equally in all wage classes that it was so strong for so long. Why would we want to go back to the financial panics and Robber Barons of the 19th century? We already have a better way and the further we have strayed from it the worse the damage to our country. You forget totally what Henry Ford knew way back when. If you pay your workers fairly they will be able to afford buy your cars.

    Last edited by iguanaman; 01-22-13 at 12:03 AM.

  4. #104
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    This type of economic system was tried extensively in the late 1800's to the early 1900's. The results were less than satisfactory. We have had far better results with a more restrictive tax and regulation agenda. The postwar years saw the greatest growth the world has ever seen.
    I was interested up to this point. At that point on a fail at understanding history took place. The growth after WWII occurred as a result of the war and its effects on Europe. It boosted us right up the ladder and made us essentially a monopoly. The irony of liberals pointing to this time as the golden age is just too much. The changes you think were great in terms of taxes did nothing but limit the potential this monopoly gave us. Lets remember, when you tax something you get LESS of it. You don't just magically get more growth when you are causing less growth to occur. Liberals need to understand how taxes work it seems.
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-22-13 at 12:17 AM.

  5. #105
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I was interested up to this point. At that point on a fail at understanding history took place. The growth after WWII occurred as a result of the war and its effects on Europe. It boosted us right up the ladder and made us essentially a monopoly on the world market. The irony of liberals pointing to this time as the golden age is just too much. The changes you think were great in terms of taxes did nothing but limit the potential this monopoly gave us. Lets remember, when you tax something you get LESS of it. You don't just magically get more growth when you are causing less growth to occur. Liberals need to understand how taxes work it seems.
    So being a monopoly is what caused the rise of the great middle class? You are the one failing history. It was not the growth alone that made us the envy of the world it was the fact that it encompassed all wage classes. We exported that to all the nations of Europe via their new Constitutions along with the Social Contracts that you now try to destroy. Taxes are a means to an end. They pay the bills but thru progessive taxes we can also control the economy to favor growth over stagnation. Why has it been so hard to get any real growth in the economy in the last 35 years. Because median wages have been stagnant that long and consumers aren't spending, unless it is money they don't have.

  6. #106
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    I personally believe that there is a place for unions, however, they are a great impediment to financial progress and, at least in the later years, have asked for unreasonable changes that simply cannot be given to them. That is why China is so far ahead of us. Which is also the reason why China has a ridiculously poor and unhealthy working class
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #107
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So being a monopoly is what caused the rise of the great middle class? You are the one failing history. It was not the growth alone that made us the envy of the world it was the fact that it encompassed all wage classes.
    Yes, when a boat goes up everyones boat goes up. You should check your history of capitalism a bit more.

    We exported that to all the nations of Europe via their new Constitutions along with the Social Contracts that you now try to destroy.
    What social contract do I want to destroy? I remember the idea well, but I don't see how liberal policies have anything to do with it. Explain how your ideas somehow have anything to do with the original concept?

    Taxes are a means to an end. They pay the bills but thru progessive taxes we can also control the economy to favor growth over stagnation.
    As I said, when you tax something you get LESS of it. That is how they function. Now, you could later get that money back into the economy, but then you are just lowering wages and raising prices. It doesn't serve any function that is desirable except create demand which could create some jobs. Considering the jobs will be lower paid in the long run that serves no real purpose either. Your entire system is built entirely on ****ty economics.

    Why has it been so hard to get any real growth in the economy in the last 35 years. Because median wages have been stagnant that long and consumers aren't spending, unless it is money they don't have.
    Lets say that is true, how do you think the two are related?
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-22-13 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #108
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    I'm going to give a short answer.

    Anyone remember the terms "company store" and "company town"? Where people were forced to live in a specific town owned by the company and buy from a company-owned shop, often on credit?

    If the government told you that you can only buy from Target and you had to live in a specific town, you would be up in arms about it!

    How is it different if a corporation tells you to do the same? Obviously, this is an extreme example, but an infringement on personal rights is just that, regardless of whether the government or a corporate entity impressed it upon you.

  9. #109
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yes, when a boat goes up everyones boat goes up. You should check your history of capitalism a bit more.



    What social contract do I want to destroy? I remember the idea well, but I don't see how liberal policies have anything to do with it. Explain how your ideas somehow have anything to do with the original concept?



    As I said, when you tax something you get LESS of it. That is how they function. Now, you could later get that money back into the economy, but then you are just lowering wages and raising prices. It doesn't serve any function that is desirable except create demand which could create some jobs. Considering the jobs will be lower paid in the long run that serves no real purpose either. Your entire system is built entirely on ****ty economics.



    Lets say that is true, how do you think the two are related?
    Except that the middle class boat has become more like a submarine lately while the 95th percentile keeps rising. It is unsustainable and anyone can see that.
    Income maldistributon is higher now that at any time since before the Great Depression. The top 5% have quitupled thei net worths in those 35 years to a unbelievable $40 Trillion. That is also unsustainable.
    Taxing income not spent actually gets you more growth because the Govt spends that extra income in the economy instead of it just adding to the hedge funds bidding up commodities we all need and use.

  10. #110
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Except that the middle class boat has become more like a submarine lately while the 95th percentile keeps rising. It is unsustainable and anyone can see that.
    Yes, because government has put itself in the middle of the relationship between worker and owner, as I said.

    Income maldistributon is higher now that at any time since before the Great Depression. The top 5% have quitupled thei net worths in those 35 years to a unbelievable $40 Trillion. That is also unsustainable.
    Yes, they have.


    Taxing income not spent actually gets you more growth because the Govt spends that extra income in the economy instead of it just adding to the hedge funds bidding up commodities we all need and use.
    If what comes out is more of what you are trying to fight against then clearly the plan in motion is complete tripe. That is what you got, so tell me, how can you claim its working? You really can't so you have to fight against people that are not using money and claim it's better used in the economy. That is of course not only a jealousy argument at its heart, but a stupid one to boot. Creating economic activity doesn't mean you will get what you desire. You will get demand and you will get growth, but don't think for a moment either of them are working to the common mans favor.

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