View Poll Results: Your stance on space programs

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60. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm an American and I consider NASA a priority

    38 63.33%
  • I'm an American and I don't consider space programs a priority

    12 20.00%
  • I'm an American and I want more international coop (NASA + ESA + other)

    20 33.33%
  • I'm an European and I consider ESA a priority

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I want more international coop

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm Russian and I want more for Roscosmos

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I want more cooperation

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm (other) and herp derp, I leave comment

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

  1. #191
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Any combative language is just in good fun
    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Sure, we'll start with robots. That's a smart move. Initial risks and the solutions can be established safely with robots first. But robots would do this to pave the way for manned (and womanned) expeditions. Manned exploration is indeed riskier, but also more flexible and adaptable. Once human beings establish themselves in space, that's when the real growth and the real benefit emerges.
    Not really robots, think much bigger. I'm talking AI, the robotics is just metal and electricity, no different than your muscle and blood. It's the intelligence of synethic life that will be the game-changer. Growth in space? That's like an oxymoron. Space is not suitable for life, that's why nothing ****ing lives out there. The idea that just stuffing people into space is somehow a good thing, or beneficial, or some great untapped resource, compared to the opportunity costs that are absurdly plentiful on Earth, where life flourishes, is nuts IMO. The costs of doing anything in space...so staggering, and so pointless (past the current uses of space we have...like satellites and national defense). It's all about ego and Trekkie-emotions IMO, of the generation that did not grow up with computers. The newer generations grew up with computers, the likely understand where the real frontiers our today. It's not in stuffing humans into a desolate, lifeless void, propelling them light years away, and saying "wow, that was useful!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstang
    We haven't even begun to reach much less know our boundaries.
    That's just dreamy talk. The fact is that the boundaries on earth are as deep or deeper, FAR more theoretically profitable in terms of resource, human suffering, happiness, etc., etc., AND far cheaper and far less dangerous and far more directly applicable to the economy and national security. The vast distances in space put real, physical limits on what we can achieve there. It's factual, it's irrefutable, and it ensures any calculation of "what we can accomplish in the dead of space", is far and away less significant than what we can do on earth.

    And once we do develop it...let's put it this way. Any boundaries or frontiers that humans might dream up, will be not just already dreamed up by AI, but will have been solved in historical record breaking times by it/them. AI will be what dreams the dreams of the future, and Humans if we're lucky, will be in for the ride of our lives (until we replace ourselves with synethic life).

    I will say that AI development is also incredible scary. Enough literature has touched on it, but it feels invevitable, and the good appears to far outweight the potential risks.

  2. #192
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Any combative language is just in good fun


    Not really robots, think much bigger. I'm talking AI, the robotics is just metal and electricity, no different than your muscle and blood. It's the intelligence of synethic life that will be the game-changer. Growth in space? That's like an oxymoron. Space is not suitable for life, that's why nothing ****ing lives out there. The idea that just stuffing people into space is somehow a good thing, or beneficial, or some great untapped resource, compared to the opportunity costs that are absurdly plentiful on Earth, where life flourishes, is nuts IMO. The costs of doing anything in space...so staggering, and so pointless (past the current uses of space we have...like satellites and national defense). It's all about ego and Trekkie-emotions IMO, of the generation that did not grow up with computers. The newer generations grew up with computers, the likely understand where the real frontiers our today. It's not in stuffing humans into a desolate, lifeless void, propelling them light years away, and saying "wow, that was useful!".
    Well, if you think about it, life does flourish in space. The Earth is in space, and we're on the Earth. So we're flourishing in space. We're really just on a spaceship called Earth. If you build a space habitat or spaceship or moonbase, we're still flourishing in space. We just have to bring the conditions we need with us and we're golden. We could build habitats in Antarctica or even below the sea, remaining on Earth where life flourishes as you suggest. But unfortunately, both of these locations have hostile environments. Just like in space, we would have to bring our environment with us. Little difference except it would probably be easier to build a space habitat rather than an undersea habitat (high pressure, corrosion).

    And the benefits of space are HUGE. The metals you can make in zero-gee environments are simply not possible in a gravity well. Quite possibly the artificial crystals that will make AI possible will likely be made in space because the molecular distribution of material can be evenly distributed. The whopping amount of metals out there in asteroids would put the entire Earth's metal industry to shame. And what about rare-earth metals? More and more, we use rare-earth metals in computers, cell phones, and even cars. But mining for them is toxic to Earth's environment. Not so in space! Nobody breathes space (not willingly anyway) so you can mine rare-earth metals to your heart's content. And what about disposing of toxic materials we cannot recycle? Pack 'em into a rocket and shoot it at the sun. What about nuclear waste? Same thing. No need to worry about nuclear waste any longer. And you needn't worry about polluting the sun; it's a nuclear furnace after all.

    And what about Human population? Previous estimates of what the Earth can support have been proven wrong, but can that go on indefinitely? Can the Earth feed Trillions of people? Doubtful. So where else can we go? Space of course. We can build orbiting habitats from the metals found in asteroids, make our own oxygen from water deposits on the moon and Mars and with hydroponics, and feed ourselves with terrestrial life forms living in the habitat with us.

    Eventually, we'll have to leave Earth. There's no two ways around it. Either we'll overpopulate the place and turn a beautiful garden into a cesspool, or something big will hit us and make the Earth uninhabitable a different way, anyway. Some may claim that's the natural way of things. The Dinosaurs died out with asteroids, why shouldn't we (they didn't really die, we just call them birds now)? This is the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Dinosaurs were not tool users and therefore could not modify/adapt their environment. When extreme environmental stresses occurred, they were doomed. This was ignorance. Humans, on the other hand, CAN change our environment to suit our needs. This allows us to voyage into places that would not normally support us, and flourish. So since we can adapt to life in space, we should. An Asteroid might hit us tomorrow, or in 50 years or in 1000 years. Nobody knows when. But it would be sheer stupidity to understand the danger yet fail to use our ability to adapt, to our advantage. Dinosaurs were just ignorant. If we don't go into space, we're just stupid.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's just dreamy talk. The fact is that the boundaries on earth are as deep or deeper, FAR more theoretically profitable in terms of resource, human suffering, happiness, etc., etc., AND far cheaper and far less dangerous and far more directly applicable to the economy and national security. The vast distances in space put real, physical limits on what we can achieve there. It's factual, it's irrefutable, and it ensures any calculation of "what we can accomplish in the dead of space", is far and away less significant than what we can do on earth.

    And once we do develop it...let's put it this way. Any boundaries or frontiers that humans might dream up, will be not just already dreamed up by AI, but will have been solved in historical record breaking times by it/them. AI will be what dreams the dreams of the future, and Humans if we're lucky, will be in for the ride of our lives (until we replace ourselves with synethic life).

    I will say that AI development is also incredible scary. Enough literature has touched on it, but it feels invevitable, and the good appears to far outweight the potential risks.
    We've already proven we can get to another planet (several actually). Why haven't we set foot on there yet? You think that our boundary is Earth...yet we've already surpassed being confined to this planet. The only thing weighing you down is your own limitations.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    My pleasure.

    If I'm a new manufacturer, and I've worked out a foolproof means of injecting air bubbles into molten steel (thus making it very strong and incredibly light), my troubles are not over. I need investors. Since this has to be done in space, I can't just take over an old warehouse and refit it. I need an entire module all to myself in the ISS (International Space Station) or even a new space station. That's a gargantuan up front cost. The fact that I've got an expert team at running the bubble injector is also not my last problem. Every single member of that team needs to know how to put on a space suit in zero-gee. They need to know how to run space station fire-suppression systems and how to operate a zero-gee toilet. They need the mental/emotional capacity to operate in confined spaces for long periods of time. My employees are expensive. They need to know how to operate a lot more than just one systems in a factory. So how do I get investors to buy into this when my up-front costs are already looking astronomical?

    This is where NASA steps in. If NASA gets their way, empty modules ready to be occupied would already be available. They've already trained people on how to operate the day-today living equipment aboard a space station. NASA has already run a test manufacturing module to prove the feasibility so everybody knows it can work. And their people can train other people so no one has to reinvent the wheel.

    With the road already paved to the frontier and with people already available who are skilled in operating in the frontier, my chances of getting investors for a new manufacturing facility aboard the ISS just shot through the roof. I can actually pull this off. Agencies like NASA and ESA are only there to open the frontier to private enterprise. Without them, private enterprise simply cannot afford the risk. With government agencies assistance, as has been proven time and again, nations can be made rich beyond their wildest dreams.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Yep. Pushing the envelope is a good thing though. It improves everyone and every thing. The thing about NASA is that its got some of our most brilliant people working for them, and here is the key word, together. Close NASA down and they will be split apart. What happens to a football team when that happens? They no longer accomplish what it is they were accomplishing. Its like splitting apart the team that just won the super bowl. It just doesn't make sense.



    Depends on your pov. Would you rather have them working together? Or would you rather have them working for several different companies and thereby not accomplishing what they could together?



    True that! lol



    And I would say that out of all the government programs NASA is THE most useful one. Its been far more beneficial to this country than any other program since its inception. What other program do you know of that has contributed to this country with no detriment other than the little bit of money that it gets? Yeah the other government programs may well be able to do what you say. But the reality is most of them comes with some other detriment other than the money they get.

    And no, you don't have to make concessions for all programs just because you make concessions for one. That is an illusion. If you have cancer cells in your arm you don't cut the whole arm off. You just cut the cancer cells out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Why aren't they achieving end goals though? Is it them themselves holding them back? Or our government? Or just plain physics?

    From what I've seen...our government and them cutting NASA's funds.
    Okay guys, to be honest, I'm tired of debating this topic lol. I'm just making sure I give you the common courtesy of a response as we have had a great debate up to this point. Thanks for staying civil, I think we all know where each other stands, and I look forward to future debates with you.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  5. #195
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Okay guys, to be honest, I'm tired of debating this topic lol. I'm just making sure I give you the common courtesy of a response as we have had a great debate up to this point. Thanks for staying civil, I think we all know where each other stands, and I look forward to future debates with you.
    I've enjoyed it too. Thank you.
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