View Poll Results: Your stance on space programs

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  • I'm an American and I consider NASA a priority

    38 63.33%
  • I'm an American and I don't consider space programs a priority

    12 20.00%
  • I'm an American and I want more international coop (NASA + ESA + other)

    20 33.33%
  • I'm an European and I consider ESA a priority

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I want more international coop

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm Russian and I want more for Roscosmos

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I want more cooperation

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm (other) and herp derp, I leave comment

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

  1. #181
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    To what end though? My point in emphasizing were was that there are private space programs that can do what we need done ie satellite tracking/repair. As far as Mars, etc, who cares right now? Our country is in a fiscal crisis. Screw the bells and whistles.
    Perhaps the key viewpoint difference we have is that I do not consider a space program (NASA or otherwise) a "bell and whistle".

    Rather, I consider it vital.

    Far more so than any of the idiotic attempts at "fixing" the economy that have been made over the past few years.

    And frankly, far cheaper.
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Perhaps the key viewpoint difference we have is that I do not consider a space program (NASA or otherwise) a "bell and whistle".

    Rather, I consider it vital.

    Far more so than any of the idiotic attempts at "fixing" the economy that have been made over the past few years.

    And frankly, far cheaper.
    Can you explain why you don't think it's a "bell and whistle" please?
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  3. #183
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Can you name some of said materials?
    Here's a very small sampling:

    Alloys are produced by melting and mixing different substances into new combinations, then cooling and solidifying the resulting blend. Tests performed on several shuttle missions have proven that in the absence of gravity, uniquely strong metal alloys can be formed. Preliminary estimates made of this market indicate that it could generate revenues between
    [...]
    The current generation of semi-conductors is approaching a ceiling in speed and power. Experiments done on recent shuttle flights indicate that Micro Gravity semiconductor materials could produce chips as much as a thousand times more powerful than anything now available. The projected market for these new semiconductors could approach $35 to $40 billion annually as lessors of our Space Island facilities reach full production.
    [...]
    These newly discovered, microscopic devices will have a tremendous variety of uses in our society. But because of their minute size, the most useful MEMS can only be mass produced in orbit, where gravity cannot interfere with their formation. Early estimates are that this market could quickly exceed $10-$20 billion annually.
    [...]
    Over the last 20 years, experiments done onboard NASA's shuttles have proven that pharmaceuticals produced in space have purities far higher than any produced on Earth. The new medicines developed and manufactured on Space Island Stations and Geodes will completely change the way we treat illness. Lives could be saved and the pain and suffering which could be eliminated, could become our greatest gift to Mankind's future. This market is estimated to be in the $10 billion to $12 billion range.
    [...]
    This is the most startling use of large, commercial space stations. Based on work he's done with NASA, Dr. J. Milborne Jessup, others at Harvard and at Deaconess Hospital in Boston believe it will be possible to grow genetically matched replacement organs for humans in space. It turns out that in containers in Earth laboratories, elementary human cells replicate themselves up to the point where they change into the specialized cells of organs, them stop.

    For some unknown reason no lab has been able to get them to specialize as they do in the womb. But in the womb-like conditions of zero-gravity, this change does occur.

    They've tested it on the shuttle. This technology might start with organs like the liver and expand to hearts and lungs. It could eventually include eyes and perhaps even complete limbs, grown in orbit and brought back down for transplant into the patient. Since the genetic material could be taken from the affected individual, there would be no rejection problem as there is with today U.S. transplants.
    [...]
    Satellite builders must also construct extremely expensive vacuum test chambers to duplicate the conditions of space. How much do you think a car would cost if it were designed to operate 7 or 8 years with absolutely no chance to visit a service station, and if it were assembled underwater - in an environment radically different from were it would operate?

    By building a satellite's main components on Earth, launching them to large ET-stations in the unmanned, cargo version of the Dual Launch Vehicle and having the crews test, assemble and retest the satellite in free-floating ET-hangers, their cost could drop to perhaps a quarter of today's. And of course if some component did fail in orbit or if it needed more fuel, help could be just a few minutes away - for a fee.

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  4. #184
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    A huge amount of scientific progress that we use in our everyday lives came from space exploration. It was a huge boon to technology. Further space exploration is vital to expanding our scientific understanding. Manned exploration is at a standstill for a while, but we have learned amazing things from probe missions, many of which have lead to developments in our everyday lives.
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  5. #185
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Mystery Properties of Black Holes Revealed.....

    Now Denmark scientists have come up with what they say are groundbreaking theories that explain several properties of the enigmatic black hole. The scientists’ research indicates black holes have properties similar to the dynamics of both solids and liquids. What’s generally known about black holes is that they’re extremely compact –some are as small as less than .01 mm– and that they can generate a gravitational pull so powerful that anything and everything that comes near them is swallowed up, including light.

    We’re not able to see these cosmic vacuum cleaners because any light that does hit them is absorbed rather than being reflected. Black holes were predicted by Einstein’s general theory of relativity but scientists haven’t been able to determine their properties. “Black holes are not completely black, because we know that they emit radiation and there are indications that the radiation is thermal, i.e. it has a temperature,” explains Niels Obers, a professor at the University of Copenhagen.


    An artist’s drawing shows a large black hole pulling gas away from a nearby star. (NASA)

    Obers says one can view black holes like particles. Since, in principle, a particle has no dimensions, it is merely a point. But, if a particle is given an extra dimension –such as a straight line– it then becomes a string. And if you give the string yet an additional dimension, it becomes a plane. Physicists refer to one of these planes as a ‘brane’, similar to the biological term, ‘membrane’. “In string theory, you can have different branes, including planes that behave like black holes, which we call black branes,” Obers says. “The black branes are thermal, that is to say, they have a temperature and are dynamical objects. When black branes are folded into multiple dimensions, they form a ‘blackfold’.”

    Obers and his colleagues say they’ve been able to develop their new theories on the physics of black holes based on the principals of these black branes and blackfolds. “The black branes are hydro-dynamic objects, that is to say that they have the properties of a liquid,” says Jay Armas, who also worked on the project. “We have now discovered that black branes also have properties which can be explained in terms of solids. They can behave like elastic material when we bend them.” “With these new theories, we expect to be able to explain other black hole phenomena, and we expect to be able to better understand the physical properties of neutron stars,” said Obers.....snip~


    Artist impression of black branes forming a “blackfold”(

    Mystery Properties of Black Holes Revealed « Science World

  6. #186
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Here's a very small sampling:

    Alloys are produced by melting and mixing different substances into new combinations, then cooling and solidifying the resulting blend. Tests performed on several shuttle missions have proven that in the absence of gravity, uniquely strong metal alloys can be formed. Preliminary estimates made of this market indicate that it could generate revenues between
    [...]
    The current generation of semi-conductors is approaching a ceiling in speed and power. Experiments done on recent shuttle flights indicate that Micro Gravity semiconductor materials could produce chips as much as a thousand times more powerful than anything now available. The projected market for these new semiconductors could approach $35 to $40 billion annually as lessors of our Space Island facilities reach full production.
    [...]
    These newly discovered, microscopic devices will have a tremendous variety of uses in our society. But because of their minute size, the most useful MEMS can only be mass produced in orbit, where gravity cannot interfere with their formation. Early estimates are that this market could quickly exceed $10-$20 billion annually.
    [...]
    Over the last 20 years, experiments done onboard NASA's shuttles have proven that pharmaceuticals produced in space have purities far higher than any produced on Earth. The new medicines developed and manufactured on Space Island Stations and Geodes will completely change the way we treat illness. Lives could be saved and the pain and suffering which could be eliminated, could become our greatest gift to Mankind's future. This market is estimated to be in the $10 billion to $12 billion range.
    [...]
    This is the most startling use of large, commercial space stations. Based on work he's done with NASA, Dr. J. Milborne Jessup, others at Harvard and at Deaconess Hospital in Boston believe it will be possible to grow genetically matched replacement organs for humans in space. It turns out that in containers in Earth laboratories, elementary human cells replicate themselves up to the point where they change into the specialized cells of organs, them stop.

    For some unknown reason no lab has been able to get them to specialize as they do in the womb. But in the womb-like conditions of zero-gravity, this change does occur.

    They've tested it on the shuttle. This technology might start with organs like the liver and expand to hearts and lungs. It could eventually include eyes and perhaps even complete limbs, grown in orbit and brought back down for transplant into the patient. Since the genetic material could be taken from the affected individual, there would be no rejection problem as there is with today U.S. transplants.
    [...]
    Satellite builders must also construct extremely expensive vacuum test chambers to duplicate the conditions of space. How much do you think a car would cost if it were designed to operate 7 or 8 years with absolutely no chance to visit a service station, and if it were assembled underwater - in an environment radically different from were it would operate?

    By building a satellite's main components on Earth, launching them to large ET-stations in the unmanned, cargo version of the Dual Launch Vehicle and having the crews test, assemble and retest the satellite in free-floating ET-hangers, their cost could drop to perhaps a quarter of today's. And of course if some component did fail in orbit or if it needed more fuel, help could be just a few minutes away - for a fee.

    Space Island Group - Manufacturing
    This is a great point, however, this is a private group. They don't need NASA to do this anymore. Sure, they benefit from what NASA did. Not from what NASA is doing. Like I said earlier, NASA was a great organization. They gave the whole country a boost when we went to the moon (and when we could afford to do it). However, the only thing they've done since is produce offspring products without any end goal success.
    This is very interesting though. A great point to be sure. If NASA started doing this stuff, I may reevaluate my point of view. Especially if they were willing to make it more of a partership where they gave their expertise and advice to the private group to further enhance their ability to do this. Thanks for posting this.
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  7. #187
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    This is a great point, however, this is a private group. They don't need NASA to do this anymore. Sure, they benefit from what NASA did. Not from what NASA is doing. Like I said earlier, NASA was a great organization. They gave the whole country a boost when we went to the moon (and when we could afford to do it). However, the only thing they've done since is produce offspring products without any end goal success.
    This is very interesting though. A great point to be sure. If NASA started doing this stuff, I may reevaluate my point of view. Especially if they were willing to make it more of a partership where they gave their expertise and advice to the private group to further enhance their ability to do this. Thanks for posting this.
    My pleasure.

    If I'm a new manufacturer, and I've worked out a foolproof means of injecting air bubbles into molten steel (thus making it very strong and incredibly light), my troubles are not over. I need investors. Since this has to be done in space, I can't just take over an old warehouse and refit it. I need an entire module all to myself in the ISS (International Space Station) or even a new space station. That's a gargantuan up front cost. The fact that I've got an expert team at running the bubble injector is also not my last problem. Every single member of that team needs to know how to put on a space suit in zero-gee. They need to know how to run space station fire-suppression systems and how to operate a zero-gee toilet. They need the mental/emotional capacity to operate in confined spaces for long periods of time. My employees are expensive. They need to know how to operate a lot more than just one systems in a factory. So how do I get investors to buy into this when my up-front costs are already looking astronomical?

    This is where NASA steps in. If NASA gets their way, empty modules ready to be occupied would already be available. They've already trained people on how to operate the day-today living equipment aboard a space station. NASA has already run a test manufacturing module to prove the feasibility so everybody knows it can work. And their people can train other people so no one has to reinvent the wheel.

    With the road already paved to the frontier and with people already available who are skilled in operating in the frontier, my chances of getting investors for a new manufacturing facility aboard the ISS just shot through the roof. I can actually pull this off. Agencies like NASA and ESA are only there to open the frontier to private enterprise. Without them, private enterprise simply cannot afford the risk. With government agencies assistance, as has been proven time and again, nations can be made rich beyond their wildest dreams.
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  8. #188
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    The point of NASA is to keep pushing the envelope though. They don't stop at the moon, they go to Mars. NASA will always be cost prohibitive because it will always seek to improve and go further.
    Yep. Pushing the envelope is a good thing though. It improves everyone and every thing. The thing about NASA is that its got some of our most brilliant people working for them, and here is the key word, together. Close NASA down and they will be split apart. What happens to a football team when that happens? They no longer accomplish what it is they were accomplishing. Its like splitting apart the team that just won the super bowl. It just doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So we can simply move the rest of the them to the private sector then. No biggie right?
    Depends on your pov. Would you rather have them working together? Or would you rather have them working for several different companies and thereby not accomplishing what they could together?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    We can blame Congress for a lot of things lol
    True that! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I agree the US will always be in debt. But there's a difference between rising, uncontrollable debt and steady, manageable debt. IMO, priorities should be set as what we need the most, then go from there. Sure, NASA takes a small piece of the pie but when you make concessions for one agency, you make them for all. Every agency can pitch to Congress why their program is SO IMPORTANT and NEEDS to be kept. The video earlier showed that. So if everyone goes in with some awesome speech to pitch their program (job), and the idiots in Congress fall for it (as they tend to do), we are back at square one. All programs should be on the table, I totally agree with you there. But the size of them shouldn't be taken into account. It should be their usefulness to the countries prosperity.
    And I would say that out of all the government programs NASA is THE most useful one. Its been far more beneficial to this country than any other program since its inception. What other program do you know of that has contributed to this country with no detriment other than the little bit of money that it gets? Yeah the other government programs may well be able to do what you say. But the reality is most of them comes with some other detriment other than the money they get.

    And no, you don't have to make concessions for all programs just because you make concessions for one. That is an illusion. If you have cancer cells in your arm you don't cut the whole arm off. You just cut the cancer cells out.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 01-11-13 at 06:26 AM.
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  9. #189
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    This is a great point, however, this is a private group. They don't need NASA to do this anymore. Sure, they benefit from what NASA did. Not from what NASA is doing. Like I said earlier, NASA was a great organization. They gave the whole country a boost when we went to the moon (and when we could afford to do it). However, the only thing they've done since is produce offspring products without any end goal success.
    This is very interesting though. A great point to be sure. If NASA started doing this stuff, I may reevaluate my point of view. Especially if they were willing to make it more of a partership where they gave their expertise and advice to the private group to further enhance their ability to do this. Thanks for posting this.
    Why aren't they achieving end goals though? Is it them themselves holding them back? Or our government? Or just plain physics?

    From what I've seen...our government and them cutting NASA's funds.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 01-11-13 at 06:42 AM.
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  10. #190
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Scientists have used a novel technique to probe the nature of dark energy some 10 billion years into the past.

    The method relies on bright but distant objects known as quasars to map the spread of hydrogen gas clouds in space.

    The 3D distribution of these clouds can be used as a tracer for the influence of dark energy through time.



    It is authored by the BOSS (Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey) team, which uses the 2.5m Sloan Foundation Telescope in New Mexico, US, to make its observations of the sky.

    The international group's new data is said to be a very neat fit with theory, confirming ideas that dark energy did not have a dominant role in the nascent Universe. Back then, gravity actually held sway, decelerating cosmic expansion. Only later did dark energy come to the fore.

    "So, dark energy is something that increases with time. As the Universe expands, it gives us more space and therefore more energy, and at some point dark energy takes over from gravity to end the deceleration and drive an acceleration," the Portsmouth University, UK, researcher told BBC News.

    A number of techniques are being deployed to try to get some insight. One concerns so-called baryon acoustic oscillations.



    These refer to the pressure-driven waves that passed through the post-Big-Bang Universe and which subsequently became frozen into the distribution of matter once it had cooled to a sufficient level.

    Today, those oscillations show themselves as a "preferred scale" in the spread of galaxies - a slight excess in the numbers of such objects with separations of 500 million light-years.

    It is an observation that can be used as a kind of standard ruler to measure the geometry of the cosmos.

    By observing almost 50,000 closely spaced quasars, the BOSS team has now been able to build a detailed 3D map of the distribution of hydrogen gas clouds reaching 11 billion light-years away, and recording an epoch just two billion years after the Big Bang itself.

    "Each line of sight may have several hundred clouds, and so with 48,000 quasars we have many millions of these clouds," said Portsmouth colleague Prof Bob Nichol.

    The BOSS maps allow scientists to check the pace of expansion at different cosmological epochs, helping them to determine whether gravity and dark energy are behaving as theory predicts.


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