View Poll Results: Your stance on space programs

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  • I'm an American and I consider NASA a priority

    38 63.33%
  • I'm an American and I don't consider space programs a priority

    12 20.00%
  • I'm an American and I want more international coop (NASA + ESA + other)

    20 33.33%
  • I'm an European and I consider ESA a priority

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I want more international coop

    2 3.33%
  • I'm an European and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm Russian and I want more for Roscosmos

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I want more cooperation

    1 1.67%
  • I'm Russian and I don't care about space programs

    0 0%
  • I'm (other) and herp derp, I leave comment

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

  1. #141
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So, let me get this straight. It's okay for you to deal in the hypothetical (potential that is out there, nothing actually useful yet) but not okay for me to (someone else would have invented all of the stuff NASA did eventually anyway)? Gotcha. How about this for a discovery. Lets see if we can balance the budget and stop running deficits. I think that would be a bigger feat that putting a man on Mars. I would use the moon but we've already done that. I am a function kind of guy. Sure, getting to the moon was cool so we could rub it in Russia's face. But what function did it serve to improve? Nothing. We need substance not moral victories
    1: The difference is I'm dealing with the future. You're dealing with the past and what has already happened. BIG difference.

    2: NASA got 18.7 billion last year. Their budget got cut for this year. How much did the Military spend last year? How much did entitlement programs cost? Point being that the amount of money that NASA gets is a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of government programs on a one on one bases. Why would you want to stop a program that has given so much to society on so little a budget? NASA is the only government program that hasn't run in the red. I don't know, maybe i'm missing something but it sure seems to me that getting rid of a program that actually produces while keeping programs that don't seems awefully counter productive to me.

    3: There's plenty of substance. You just refuse to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Yes I do, if the US gov't tells them they will pay them for it. Have you not seen some of the reality shows on TV? There is always someone that will do something for money in this world. I stated earlier (to another user I believe) that the private industry has a ways to go before we could turn everything over to them.
    Wait...what is the difference between the government giving private corporations money to do something vs the government just doing it itself when it comes to saving money? And really, so what if the government gives money to encourage the private corporations to do something...more often than not it often takes more than what the government gives for the private corporation to accomplish something. Which means no profit. Which means the private corporation will just tell the government no. And if the government gives enough to make a profit to the corporation then government money will be wasted as it will cost more than what it would take for the government to do it itself. Especially when it comes to something like finding NEO's.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The problem with this topic is that it becomes apparent quickly that it is really all about dreams. Its all about this nonsense of visiting other planets, colonization, and all this other scifi nonsense. None of this stuff is realistic and none of it serves any purpose.
    If people never dreamed then we would still be living in caves. As Albert Einstein once said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge". Can you figure out why he, a man of science, said that?

    Oh and fyi..people once considered flying nonsense also. Yet now millions of people do it every single year and we've been to the moon. So much for nonsense huh?
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  3. #143
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Exploitation of what though? There are no resources to use. There isn't anything useful in space.
    The same resources that are on this planet are on other planets also. You seem to forget that other planets are made from the same things that this planet is made from. Some planets may lack some things yes, but to claim that there are no resources on other planets? That is just a WOW moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    EPIC doesn't pay the bills.
    And yet for every dollar that NASA spends the US economy recieves $8. What other government program do you know of that does that?
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  4. #144
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: The difference is I'm dealing with the future. You're dealing with the past and what has already happened. BIG difference.
    Oh, so its better because you're dealing with things that may or may not happen........
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    2: NASA got 18.7 billion last year. Their budget got cut for this year. How much did the Military spend last year? How much did entitlement programs cost? Point being that the amount of money that NASA gets is a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of government programs on a one on one bases. Why would you want to stop a program that has given so much to society on so little a budget? NASA is the only government program that hasn't run in the red. I don't know, maybe i'm missing something but it sure seems to me that getting rid of a program that actually produces while keeping programs that don't seems awefully counter productive to me.
    You are missing something. What you are missing is the NASA's primary mission accomplishes nothing and the things that they do accomplish could be accomplished just as easily and effectively by someone else without the expensive and useless rockets, shuttles, etc. Also, we need to stop thinking that almost 19 bil is a "drop in the ocean". That's what got us into the fiscal situation we are in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    3: There's plenty of substance. You just refuse to see it.
    You have yet to name anything useful discovered in space. Still waiting on that.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wait...what is the difference between the government giving private corporations money to do something vs the government just doing it itself when it comes to saving money? And really, so what if the government gives money to encourage the private corporations to do something...more often than not it often takes more than what the government gives for the private corporation to accomplish something. Which means no profit. Which means the private corporation will just tell the government no. And if the government gives enough to make a profit to the corporation then government money will be wasted as it will cost more than what it would take for the government to do it itself. Especially when it comes to something like finding NEO's.
    The difference is the gov't doesnt foot the constant bill for NASA and instead only the occasional bill when its needed. Its the equivalent of defense contractors vs military servicemembers. Nothing, and I mean nothing, the government does is ever more cost effective than the private industry. Why? Because in the private industry, there's someone, somewhere, that has THEIR money sunk into the company. With government funds, everyone is playing with monopoly money.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  5. #145
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The same resources that are on this planet are on other planets also. You seem to forget that other planets are made from the same things that this planet is made from. Some planets may lack some things yes, but to claim that there are no resources on other planets? That is just a WOW moment.
    Here's a wow moment. Have we harvested anything from space that is useful and cost effective? No, we haven't and we are a LONG way from that being a reality. That renders it useless. That is, unless a private entity wants to take it on. I'm betting they won't. It costs so much to get into space and effectively be able to execute an operation like that, that it turns out it isn't cost effective to begin with. But, I guess that's where the gov't will come in. If it isn't cost effective, you can bet the US gov't will be there in the center of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And yet for every dollar that NASA spends the US economy recieves $8. What other government program do you know of that does that?
    From anything they discover? No. From cool bells and whistles the create along the way. This circles back to my original point of someone else would have invented it if it was so pertinent that we have it. Do you have a source for the $8 claim?
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  6. #146
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    A PRIORITY? Really? Good grief.

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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Oh, so its better because you're dealing with things that may or may not happen........
    But there is evidence that it CAN happen. Not all dreams are spun out of thin air.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You are missing something. What you are missing is the NASA's primary mission accomplishes nothing and the things that they do accomplish could be accomplished just as easily and effectively by someone else without the expensive and useless rockets, shuttles, etc. Also, we need to stop thinking that almost 19 bil is a "drop in the ocean". That's what got us into the fiscal situation we are in.
    1: 19 billion is a drop in the ocean compared to every other program that the government has. Again, how much does the military spend per year? On welfare?

    2: You say that NASA has not accomplished anything for its primary mission...do you know what that primary mission actually is? Here, read about it...NASA And as I told the other guy awhile ago...Did you really think that the things that NASA wants to do was simple? That we'd be living on other planets in just 60 some odd years? The endeavor to get into space is not a short term thing. Its long term. Very long term. Although I will admit that if NASA got 1/4 of what the military alone gets we'd probably be on Mars by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You have yet to name anything useful discovered in space. Still waiting on that.....
    Here ya go...

    Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]-periodic_table_of_the_elements-jpg

    Everything on that table which is found naturally here on Earth is found in space...very useful stuff that we can use wouldn't you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    The difference is the gov't doesnt foot the constant bill for NASA and instead only the occasional bill when its needed. Its the equivalent of defense contractors vs military servicemembers. Nothing, and I mean nothing, the government does is ever more cost effective than the private industry. Why? Because in the private industry, there's someone, somewhere, that has THEIR money sunk into the company. With government funds, everyone is playing with monopoly money.
    Umm...the government constantly foots the bill to corporations for R&D reasearch also. The government gives out billions of dollars, (more than what NASA gets) to corporations for R&D every single year. And really, if NASA is not cost effective then why is it that for every dollar spent on NASA the economy gains $8? Can you explain that?
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  8. #148
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman24 View Post
    Uh huh. Sapient civilzations? do you mean sincient technologies?


    Sentient, sapient, sophont... whatever term you prefer, meaning intelligent self-aware life forms.

    The Drake equations were chiefly focused on how many civilizations might exist in our galaxy which are currently of a technological level that they might be detected by radio telescopes. Drake himself admitted that most of the variables in the equation could not be quantified with any meaningful accuracy until we had FAR more data on how common planets were, how common lifebearing planets were, how likely was the rise of higher animal life from primitive life, how likely was intelligence/sapience to arise from that, how commonly did sapient (sentient if you prefer) species develop technology and how long before they either wiped themselves out or fell into a long dark ages, etc etc.

    Sapient technological civilization = intelligent aliens with a civilization and something we'd recognize as technology.

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  9. #149
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Sentient, sapient, sophont... whatever term you prefer, meaning intelligent self-aware life forms.

    The Drake equations were chiefly focused on how many civilizations might exist in our galaxy which are currently of a technological level that they might be detected by radio telescopes. Drake himself admitted that most of the variables in the equation could not be quantified with any meaningful accuracy until we had FAR more data on how common planets were, how common lifebearing planets were, how likely was the rise of higher animal life from primitive life, how likely was intelligence/sapience to arise from that, how commonly did sapient (sentient if you prefer) species develop technology and how long before they either wiped themselves out or fell into a long dark ages, etc etc.

    Sapient technological civilization = intelligent aliens with a civilization and something we'd recognize as technology.
    This is absolutely correct, the variables in the drake equation are made up almost entirely of pure speculation.


    where:

    N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);
    and

    R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy (estimation based on some observation)
    fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets (largely speculation.)
    ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets (extreme speculation)
    fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point (mega speculation)
    fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life (super duper mega speculation)
    fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space (so far into speculation we can't even see verifiable data)
    L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space[5] (speculation based off previous speculation)

    Truth is though, with the new Kepler telescope, we've been able to detect thousands and thousands of exoplanets. We're starting to see that stars tend to have many, many more planets than we expected. I personally rate the likelihood of other life existing in the universe to be very high.

    How anybody can't get excited about going to mars or exploring space is beyond me.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Space programs and their support among the population [W:91]

    I'm going to ignore much of your post here because I hope the following will clear some things up...

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    From anything they discover? No. From cool bells and whistles the create along the way. This circles back to my original point of someone else would have invented it if it was so pertinent that we have it. Do you have a source for the $8 claim?
    First: Are you sure that those things would have been invented without thinking about and figuring out ways to go into space?

    As for my claim, sorry, can't remember where I saw that but you can look at this....

    Wiki ~ NASA funding

    A November 1971 study of NASA released by the Midwest Research Institute of Kansas City, Missouri ("Technological Progress and Commercialization of Communications Satellites." In: "Economic Impact of Stimulated Technological Activity") concluded that "the $25 billion in 1958 dollars spent on civilian space R & D during the 1958-1969 period has returned $52 billion through 1971 -- and will continue to produce pay offs through 1987, at which time the total pay off will have been $181 billion. The discounted rate of return for this investment will have been 33 percent."

    A 1992 article in the British science journal Nature reported

    "The economic benefits of NASA's programs are greater than generally realized. The main beneficiaries (the American public) may not even realize the source of their good fortune. . ."

    Other statistics on NASA's economic impact may be found in the 1976 Chase Econometrics Associates, Inc. reports ("The Economic Impact of NASA R&D Spending: Preliminary Executive Summary.", April 1975. Also: "Relative Impact of NASA Expenditure on the Economy.", March 18, 1975) and backed by the 1989 Chapman Research report, which examined 259 non-space applications of NASA technology during an eight-year period (1976–1984) and found more than:

    — $21.6 billion in sales and benefits;

    — 352,000 (mostly skilled) jobs created or saved,and;

    — $355 million in federal corporate income taxes

    According to the "Nature" article, these 259 applications represent ". . .only 1% of an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 Space program spin-offs."

    In 2002, the aerospace industry accounted for $95 billion of economic activity in the United States, including $23.5 billion in employee earnings dispersed among some 576,000 employees (source: Federal Aviation Administration, March 2004).
    Now take a look at that last sentence. NASA accounted for $95 billion of economic activity in 2002 alone. Including 23.5 billion in employee earnings. Yet NASA only received 14 billion dollars. You cut NASA out of the picture and what is going to happen to all those jobs? What is it going to do to the economy?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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