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How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

How many here belong to a union?

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
MoSurveyor said:
I think in the auto industry unions do set a kind of pay scale, yes. But if non-union jobs continued to pay a reasonable wage there would be no need for the union. People don't form unions when they're happy with their jobs and their basic needs are being met. I've given up promotions and higher paying jobs because I didn't like the work I would be required to do and liked where I was - haven't you?

Unions may be businesses but they're (more or less) owned by the members. Or are you saying you think business men own the unions and take all the profits? If so, I'd like to see evidence of that.
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In CT, the union leaders own houses in the same ritzy neighborhoods as the business owners. Union leaders make millions per year.
 
KevinKohler said:
In CT, the union leaders own houses in the same ritzy neighborhoods as the business owners. Union leaders make millions per year.
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So do other people that run not-for profits - that doesn't mean they own the union.
 
MoSurveyor said:
So do other people that run not-for profits - that doesn't mean they own the union.
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I never said a thing about ownership. Only that unions view its workers exactly the same as the company does. A means to an end.
 
KevinKohler said:
American Made?

Scroll down towards the bottom. The be glib, I'll just answer...the most expensive ones, lol.
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Mazdas and Suzukis, plus the Corolla and Tacoma. Not what I'd call the most expensive. I wonder why those two Toyota models are exceptions?
 
Let's just make ALL industry union. I mean, if it's fair for one group, why not for all? I wanna see a few farm hand unions, armed forces unions, heck, even political leader unions.


Why not, right?
 
MoSurveyor said:
Mazdas and Suzukis, plus the Corolla and Tacoma. Not what I'd call the most expensive. I wonder why those two Toyota models are exceptions?
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The Taco is the most expensive small to mid pickup you can buy. And the corolla is an economy car that costs more than a base mustang. So yeah, they ARE the most expensive in their class. As for why? No idea.


That list also doesn't show it, but some acuras are also union made, along with a couple other hondas.
 
KevinKohler said:
Back that up with references, or a logically sound argument.

Do union wages affect the non union wages within the same job site or company? Certainly. But from one company to another? One state to another? Basic economics denies this, as does simple logic.
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One company to another is obvious. If I can get paid 10% more over there then I'm at least going to try to work over there. If you ignore that basic rule then you may as well give up on economics.

One state to another depends on many things including cost of living and personal preference. My HS buddy took a promotion but was required to move to Savannah. That happens all the time. Others, like me, don't move because they have too many community attachments, or family, or whatever and like where they are. No reason a worker wouldn't move and join a union - or not! - for the same reason: more pay, better benefits, better location, whatever.

So, yes, union wages, especially for skilled/specialized labor, will reflect on the whole of that industry even across state lines and certainly across a small economic region like a metro.
 
MoSurveyor said:
The Japanese came in and set up auto assembly plants in America. Those workers are paid near union wages and benefits without there being a union. Why isn't there a union at those Japanese auto plants? Because it's not needed. Too bad other American companies can't learn that lesson.
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Yes, and Germany is highly unionized, yet it's a federal law that union membership can't be used as a condition for employment. Seems like maybe we should see what they're doing instead of crying and trying to make union membership a condition of employment.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, and Germany is highly unionized, yet it's a federal law that union membership can't be used as a condition for employment. Seems like maybe we should see what they're doing instead of crying and trying to make union membership a condition of employment.
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That's a good idea - and don't stop at unions. Make sure you read about the "Works Councils", too. ;)


http://www.wilmerhale.com/pages/publicationsandNewsDetail.aspx?NewsPubId=90463

I haven't read all of this link - but it looks good ...
http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/v...zntg#search="german labor law works councils"
 
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ChrisL said:
You're giving me a headache. :2razz:

Seriously, the union wages set a standard for others.
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:) Seriously, there is indeed evidence that union-heavy states do indeed have higher average wages (as we talked about earlier, depending on how you count). There seriously is also evidence that the downside of that is higher unemployment, lower growth, and economic stagnation.
 
MoSurveyor said:
One company to another is obvious. If I can get paid 10% more over there then I'm at least going to try to work over there. If you ignore that basic rule then you may as well give up on economics.
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Wait. I thought workers were powerless in the face of a race to the bottom from companies? If workers have the ability to go sell their labor to a higher bidder, then your earlier argument that without a union they are stuck with whatever their current boss offers is moot.
 
cpwill said:
:) Seriously, there is indeed evidence that union-heavy states do indeed have higher average wages (as we talked about earlier, depending on how you count). There seriously is also evidence that the downside of that is higher unemployment, lower growth, and economic stagnation.
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Funny you say that because that is not the case in my state of Massachusetts. Where is your evidence that union-heavy states have higher unemployment? I've looked at a site for the 2012 state unemployment rates by state, and I don't see what you claim as being the case at all.

State Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov
Alabama 7.8 7.6 7.3 7.2 7.4 7.8 8.3 8.5 8.3 8.1 7.5
Alaska 7.2 7.1 7.0 6.9 7.0 7.3 7.7 7.8 7.5 7.1 6.8
Arizona 8.7 8.7 8.6 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.3 8.3 8.2 8.1 7.8
Arkansas 7.6 7.6 7.4 7.2 7.3 7.2 7.3 7.3 7.1 7.2 7.0
California 10.9 10.9 11.0 10.9 10.8 10.7 10.7 10.6 10.2 10.1 9.8
Colorado 7.8 7.8 7.8 7.9 8.1 8.2 8.3 8.2 8.0 7.9 7.7
Connecticut 8.0 7.8 7.7 7.7 7.8 8.1 8.5 9.0 8.9 9.0 8.8
Delaware 7.0 7.0 6.9 6.8 6.8 6.7 6.8 6.9 6.8 6.8 6.7
D.C. 9.9 9.9 9.8 9.5 9.3 9.1 8.9 8.8 8.7 8.5 8.4
Florida 9.6 9.4 9.0 8.7 8.6 8.6 8.8 8.8 8.7 8.5 8.1
Georgia 9.2 9.1 9.0 8.9 8.9 9.0 9.3 9.2 9.0 8.7 8.5
Hawaii 6.5 6.4 6.4 6.3 6.3 6.4 6.4 6.1 5.7 5.5 5.3
Idaho 8.1 8.0 7.9 7.7 7.8 7.7 7.5 7.4 7.1 7.0 6.8
Illinois 9.4 9.1 8.8 8.7 8.6 8.7 8.9 9.1 8.8 8.8 8.7
Indiana 8.7 8.4 8.2 7.9 7.9 8.0 8.2 8.3 8.2 8.0 8.0
Iowa 5.4 5.3 5.2 5.1 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.5 5.2 5.1 4.9
Kansas 6.1 6.1 6.2 6.1 6.1 6.1 6.3 6.2 5.9 5.7 5.4
Kentucky 8.8 8.7 8.6 8.3 8.2 8.2 8.3 8.5 8.4 8.4 8.2
Louisiana 6.9 7.0 7.1 7.1 7.2 7.5 7.6 7.4 7.0 6.6 5.8
Maine 7.0 7.1 7.2 7.2 7.4 7.5 7.6 7.6 7.6 7.4 7.2
Maryland 6.5 6.5 6.6 6.7 6.8 6.9 7.0 7.1 6.9 6.7 6.6
Massachusetts 6.9 6.9 6.5 6.3 6.0 6.0 6.1 6.3 6.5 6.6 6.6
Michigan 9.0 8.8 8.5 8.3 8.5 8.6 9.0 9.4 9.3 9.1 8.9
Minnesota 5.6 5.7 5.8 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.7
Mississippi 9.9 9.5 9.0 8.7 8.7 8.8 9.1 9.1 9.2 8.9 8.5
Missouri 7.5 7.4 7.4 7.3 7.3 7.1 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.9 6.7
Montana 6.5 6.2 6.2 6.1 6.3 6.3 6.4 6.3 6.1 6.0 5.8
Nebraska 4.0 4.0 4.0 3.9 3.9 3.8 4.0 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.7
Nevada 12.7 12.3 12.0 11.7 11.6 11.6 12.0 12.1 11.8 11.5 10.8
New Hampshire 5.2 5.2 5.2 5.0 5.0 5.1 5.4 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.6
New Jersey 9.0 9.0 9.0 9.1 9.2 9.6 9.8 9.9 9.8 9.7 9.6
New Mexico 7.0 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.7 6.5 6.6 6.5 6.4 6.3 6.2
New York 8.3 8.5 8.5 8.5 8.6 8.9 9.1 9.1 8.9 8.7 8.3
North Carolina 10.2 9.9 9.7 9.4 9.4 9.4 9.6 9.7 9.6 9.3 9.1
North Dakota 3.2 3.1 3.0 3.0 3.0 2.9 3.0 3.0 3.0 3.1 3.1
Ohio 7.7 7.6 7.5 7.4 7.3 7.2 7.2 7.2 7.0 6.9 6.8
Oklahoma 6.1 6.0 5.4 5.0 4.8 4.7 4.9 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.2
Oregon 8.8 8.8 8.6 8.5 8.4 8.5 8.7 8.9 8.7 8.6 8.4
Pennsylvania 7.6 7.6 7.5 7.4 7.4 7.5 7.9 8.1 8.2 8.1 7.8
Puerto Rico 15.1 15.0 15.0 14.8 14.2 13.8 13.7 13.5 13.6 13.8 13.8
Rhode Island 10.9 11.0 11.1 11.2 11.0 10.9 10.8 10.7 10.5 10.4 10.4
South Carolina 9.3 9.1 8.9 8.8 9.1 9.4 9.6 9.6 9.1 8.6 8.3
South Dakota 4.2 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.4 4.5 4.4
Tennessee 8.2 8.0 7.9 7.8 7.9 8.1 8.4 8.5 8.3 8.2 7.6
Texas 7.3 7.1 7.0 6.9 6.9 7.0 7.2 7.1 6.8 6.6 6.2
Utah 5.7 5.7 5.8 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 5.8 5.4 5.2 5.1
Vermont 5.0 4.9 4.8 4.6 4.6 4.7 5.0 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.2
Virginia 5.8 5.7 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.7 5.6
Washington 8.3 8.2 8.3 8.1 8.3 8.3 8.5 8.6 8.5 8.2 7.8
West Virginia 7.4 7.2 6.9 6.7 6.9 7.0 7.4 7.5 7.6 7.5 7.3
Wisconsin 6.9 6.9 6.8 6.7 6.8 7.0 7.3 7.5 7.3 6.9 6.7
Wyoming 5.5 5.4 5.3 5.3 5.2 5.4 5.6 5.7 5.4 5.2 5.1
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics
 
KevinKohler said:
Back that up with references, or a logically sound argument.

Do union wages affect the non union wages within the same job site or company? Certainly. But from one company to another? One state to another? Basic economics denies this, as does simple logic.
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I guess that would depend upon the industry.
 
cpwill said:
:) Seriously, there is indeed evidence that union-heavy states do indeed have higher average wages (as we talked about earlier, depending on how you count). There seriously is also evidence that the downside of that is higher unemployment, lower growth, and economic stagnation.
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My state is heavy on unions and come to think about it I remember plenty of plants moving out but I don't remember new plants coming in to take their place, you may be on to something.
 
Rocketman said:
My state is heavy on unions and come to think about it I remember plenty of plants moving out but I don't remember new plants coming in to take their place, you may be on to something.
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As if you know about every industry that comes and goes out of your state. :roll: I notice you don't mention the name of your state either.
 
cpwill said:
Wait. I thought workers were powerless in the face of a race to the bottom from companies? If workers have the ability to go sell their labor to a higher bidder, then your earlier argument that without a union they are stuck with whatever their current boss offers is moot.
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The extra 10% was from a union company - please keep up. One non-union business pays pretty much the same as another to fill the same job.
 
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MoSurveyor said:
The extra 10% was from a union company - please keep up. One non-union business pays pretty much the same as another to fill the same job.
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If employees have the ability to move from one employer to another who pays them more, then your earlier claims that they are at the mercy of their current employer are moot, regardless of the nature of that other employer - all that is required for your model to fall apart is that employees have the ability to seek higher compensation for their labor.
 
cpwill said:
If employees have the ability to move from one employer to another who pays them more, then your earlier claims that they are at the mercy of their current employer are moot, regardless of the nature of that other employer - all that is required for your model to fall apart is that employees have the ability to seek higher compensation for their labor.
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Again you're trying to apply a commodities model to people ((and you wonder why we use the term "wage slave"??? LOL!!)). A supply/demand model might work for iron ore and paper but it can't work for people because you can't just park them in a warehouse and shut down production for awhile until the price goes back up. Unless you're willing to let those idle people die, the supply cannot be adjusted to the demand. As a society we've decided not to let people die, so when the demand goes down there's simply no way to adjust supply (fast enough) as a counter-balance, which would happen for commodities. So, what happens then? The people that are still working pay for those people to be idle, which reduces consumer spending and drags the economy further down. Iron ore doesn't have this affect, so your supply/demand model fails - unless you're willing to let people die to reduce the supply and raise the price, again.
 
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ChrisL said:
As if you know about every industry that comes and goes out of your state. :roll: I notice you don't mention the name of your state either.
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We lost Goodyear and Continental Tire plants, both union, I think Rohm and Haus is gone now, WR Grace -gone, GE-gone, Guardian Automotive-gone
 
Rocketman said:
We lost Goodyear and Continental Tire plants, both union, I think Rohm and Haus is gone now, WR Grace -gone, GE-gone, Guardian Automotive-gone
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Is that all you can do is provide is anecdotal evidence?
 
ChrisL said:
Is that all you can do is provide is anecdotal evidence?
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Anyone with any life experience knows that companies are closing and the unions are part of the problem. Sucks to be you.
 
Rocketman said:
Anyone with any life experience knows that companies are closing and the unions are part of the problem. Sucks to be you.
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:lamo OH, anyone knows?
 
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