How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

If a firm hiring permanent replacements obtains less favorable cb contracts than those who don't, isn't it worse off?

Manc Skipper said:

If a firm hiring permanent replacements obtains less favorable cb contracts than those who don't, isn't it worse off?

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It a firm goes from unionized workers to non-unionized workers, there is no more collective bargaining.

How does it benefit a firm to obtain less favorable bargaining contracts?

Manc Skipper said:

How does it benefit a firm to obtain less favorable bargaining contracts?

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It didn't say less favorable bargaining, it said less favorable COLLECTIVE bargaining. The second can only be done with a union. If you no longer have a union, no such thing.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Sorry dude, but your advocating for legal rent seeking.
Mandating union membership, as a condition of employment is BS.

Often it's the union, who imposes this on the employer, as part of the contract.

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Of course it normally is a requirement of unions regarding contracts.

You're just dancing around the issue.

Union membership should not, be associated with X company, but should be a general membership outside the business proper.
That would make it correctly voluntary, rather than compulsory.

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And totally useless as a union, unable to perform any of the general duties that unions typically are expected to perform. If I was not working at Ford, and instead working at Honda being part of a union would serve absolutely no purspose. It would not help negotiate a contract, handle work greviences, be able to organize a strike if it was desired

Lord Tammerlain said:

Of course it normally is a requirement of unions regarding contracts.

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Which is crap.
Free riders don't have to exist, provided that only union members benefit from negotiations.
But in those negotiations, I'm sure that poison pills are thrown in like, all employees must be paid X dollars and have X benefits.

So they tend to create the arguments against voluntary association.

Lord Tammerlain said:

And totally useless as a union, unable to perform any of the general duties that unions typically are expected to perform. If I was not working at Ford, and instead working at Honda being part of a union would serve absolutely no purspose. It would not help negotiate a contract, handle work greviences, be able to organize a strike if it was desired

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What the unions have created is the situation before unions, with strike breakers and such.
They have unfair legal protections and utilize violence and sabotage, in order to get what they want.

If you want to have unions, association via a specific employer, must be voluntary.
Otherwise the union is just a parasitic middle man.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Which is crap.
Free riders don't have to exist, provided that only union members benefit from negotiations.
But in those negotiations, I'm sure that poison pills are thrown in like, all employees must be paid X dollars and have X benefits.

So they tend to create the arguments against voluntary association.



What the unions have created is the situation before unions, with strike breakers and such.
They have unfair legal protections and utilize violence and sabotage, in order to get what they want.

If you want to have unions, association via a specific employer, must be voluntary.
Otherwise the union is just a parasitic middle man.

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A parasitic middle man which generally ensures higher pay and higher benifits then comparable non union positions.

Given a choice between working two companies, one with higher pay and benifits, but requires union membership or a company in a comparable position that pays less and has lower benifits, I know which I would choose

And it would be a choice I would not have been forced to work at either company, but to work at one (again by choice), I would have to join a union.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Which is crap.
Free riders don't have to exist, provided that only union members benefit from negotiations.
But in those negotiations, I'm sure that poison pills are thrown in like, all employees must be paid X dollars and have X benefits.

So they tend to create the arguments against voluntary association.

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What the unions have created is the situation before unions, with strike breakers and such.
They have unfair legal protections and utilize violence and sabotage, in order to get what they want.

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Nothing but unsubstantiated jabber unless of course you can provide a reliable unbiased source

If you want to have unions, association via a specific employer, must be voluntary.
Otherwise the union is just a parasitic middle man.

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Wrong the parasite is the person who seeks employment in a company that has a union shop.The members of the union formed and fight for the conditions,wages and benefits then the parasites come in and want to enjoy the fruits of union negotiated contracts.

Cephus said:

It certainly can be, especially if new workers refuse to cross the picket line. Unions are also known to terrorize non-union scab workers. Businesses ought to be able to say, "our contract with your union is over, we're not renewing it, either come to work as a non-union worker or go find another job".

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Why don't businesses just hire all new workers? Could it be that maybe the untrained, untried new hires just would not be able to do the work? so show me with a reliable non biased source where the union workers are terrorizing the new untrained , unskilled workers

EarlzP said:

Why don't businesses just hire all new workers? Could it be that maybe the untrained, untried new hires just would not be able to do the work? so show me with a reliable non biased source where the union workers are terrorizing the new untrained , unskilled workers

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An electrician is an electrician no matter where they work. Being in a union doesn't make them a better electrician. And speaking of electricians, you can find cases just recently where non-union utility workers were turned away from doing work to help Hurricane Sandy victims because they weren't in the union.

SEASIDE HEIGHTS, NEW JERSEY (WAFF) -

The hurricane-ravaged east coast has been receiving north Alabama help, but crews from Huntsville Utilities learned they’ll be doing work in Long Island, New York instead of in New Jersey.

Crews from Huntsville, as well as Decatur Utilities and Joe Wheeler out of Trinity headed up there this week, but Derrick Moore, one of the Decatur workers, said they were told by crews in New Jersey that they can’t do any work there since they’re not union employees.

The crews that are in Roanoke, Virginia say they are just watching and waiting even though they originally received a call asking for help from Seaside Heights, New Jersey.

The crews were told to stand down. In fact, Moore said the crew from Trinity is already headed back home.

Understandably, Moore said they’re frustrated being told “thanks, but no thanks.”

At least Huntsville has now found someone who wants their help.

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Cephus said:

An electrician is an electrician no matter where they work. Being in a union doesn't make them a better electrician. And speaking of electricians, you can find cases just recently where non-union utility workers were turned away from doing work to help Hurricane Sandy victims because they weren't in the union.

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Your wrong an electrician is not an electrician no matter where they work. Would you expect a house electrician to work high voltage, would you want a house electrician working next to you in a bucket truck?

High voltage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Power lines

High voltage power lines
Electrical transmission and distribution lines for electric power always use voltages significantly higher than 50 volts, so contact with or close approach to the line conductors presents a danger of electrocution. Contact with overhead wires is a frequent cause of injury or death. Metal ladders, farm equipment, boat masts, construction machinery, aerial antennas, and similar objects are frequently involved in fatal contact with overhead wires. Digging into a buried cable can also be dangerous to workers at an excavation site. Digging equipment (either hand tools or machine driven) that contacts a buried cable may energize piping or the ground in the area, resulting in electrocution of nearby workers. A fault in a high-voltage transmission line or substation may result in high currents flowing along the surface of the earth, producing an earth potential rise that also presents a danger of electric shock.
Unauthorized persons climbing on power pylons or electrical apparatus are also frequently the victims of electrocution.[6] At very high transmission voltages even a close approach can be hazardous, since the high voltage may spark across a significant air gap.
For high-voltage and extra-high-voltage transmission lines, specially trained personnel use so-called "live line" techniques to allow hands-on contact with energized equipment. In this case the worker is electrically connected to the high-voltage line but thoroughly insulated from the earth so that he is at the same electrical potential as that of the line. Since training for such operations is lengthy, and still presents a danger to personnel, only very important transmission lines are subject to maintenance while live. Outside these properly engineered situations, insulation from earth does not guarantee that no current flows to earth—as grounding or arcing to ground can occur in unexpected ways, and high-frequency currents can burn even an ungrounded person. Touching a transmitting antenna is dangerous for this reason, and a high-frequency Tesla Coil can sustain a spark with only one endpoint).
Protective equipment on high-voltage transmission lines normally prevents formation of an unwanted arc, or ensures that it is quenched within tens of milliseconds. Electrical apparatus that interrupts high-voltage circuits is designed to safely direct the resulting arc so that it dissipates without damage. High voltage circuit breakers often use a blast of high pressure air, a special dielectric gas (such as SF6 under pressure), or immersion in mineral oil to quench the arc when the high voltage circuit is broken.

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EarlzP said:

Your wrong an electrician is not an electrician no matter where they work. Would you expect a house electrician to work high voltage, would you want a house electrician working next to you in a bucket truck?

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Interesting. Do you have any evidence that the electricians who were turned away were turned away because they lacked the necessary skill sets rather than the fact that they weren't union?

Specifically this:

Crews from Huntsville, as well as Decatur Utilities and Joe Wheeler out of Trinity headed up there this week, but Derrick Moore, one of the Decatur workers, said they were told by crews in New Jersey that they can’t do any work there since they’re not union employees.

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Do you have an explanation for that?

cpwill said:

Interesting. Do you have any evidence that the electricians who were turned away were turned away because they lacked the necessary skill sets rather than the fact that they weren't union?

Specifically this:



Do you have an explanation for that?

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In the northeast there is very little difference between the unions and the mafia, they are the same

Moot said:

Do you think those labor and safety laws that you now enjoy would exist without the labor movement?

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Irrelevant. The unions have outlived their purpose, and have been made obsolete by the laws they pushed for in the 30's and 50's.

At the present time, I am a member of the American Federation of Musicians, and when I lived up in Michigan, was a member of the UAW. Didn't like the UAW much. As for the Musicians' Union here in Texas, it is pretty weak, but they have a credit union and other benefits. When I lived up in Michigan, if a club stiffed a band out it's pay, the union had the power to shut down that club until the musicians were paid. In Texas, the union does not have that power. Only got stiffed out of pay once, when I was with the Smith & Hightower Band. Our agent took the club to court, and we finally got our money, but it took 6 months. The club had to pay interest too, but the agent got to keep that. LOL.

Surtr said:

Irrelevant. The unions have outlived their purpose, and have been made obsolete by the laws they pushed for in the 30's and 50's.

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I guess that depends on how much one values a strong working class:

"Many business leaders claim that labor unions have out lived their usefulness and are unnecessary to today's economy. These corporate commanders fail to realize that without labor unions, most of their customers would not be able to afford their products. Many CEO's claim that labor unions force them to raise prices in order to pay the salaries and benefits demanded by organizations like UAW and AFL-CIO. Without labor unions, though, many of the people who buy their products would be languishing in the poverty stricken lower income brackets.

Labor unions helped to raise the standard of living for millions of people during the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries through better wages, employer provided health care, and benefits like child care spending accounts and retirement accounts. These benefits would not have been provided without the work done by labor unions.

Labor unions have never been popular with corporate America. Many early labor leaders were prosecuted, harassed or gave their lives for the labor movement in the United States. Some strikers were subjected to fire hoses, attack dogs and armed guards. These sacrifices Americans see that laws were needed to protect American workers.

Those sentiments led to child labor laws, minimum wage laws, the forty hour work week, and Occupational Safety oversight. If labor unions were to disappear the way corporate America wishes they would, lobbyists from those wealthy corporations would descend upon Washington D.C. These lobbyists would spend billions of dollars ensuring that the progress made by labor unions would erode. Laws protecting American workers would be repealed and without unions, American workers would not be able to have a voice in the political process. "

There Would Be No Middle Class Without Unions. - Nerdyjen - Open Salon

Rocketman said:

In the northeast there is very little difference between the unions and the mafia, they are the same

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What a bunch of bull! :roll: HOW is the union like the mafia, and to which union (s) are you are referring?

ChrisL said:

What a bunch of bull! :roll: HOW is the union like the mafia, and to which union (s) are you are referring?

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Threats of violence, actual acts of violence. intimidation. the two are very similar

Rocketman said:

Threats of violence, actual acts of violence. intimidation. the two are very similar

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Oh really? Do you have proof of your allegations or are you just talking out of your butt hole?

And the NE is full of all kinds of unions. To which are you referring?

ChrisL said:

What a bunch of bull! :roll: HOW is the union like the mafia, and to which union (s) are you are referring?

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I have heard too many stories from too many people from too many places to believe that the Unions proper are unaware of what their members do to harass and intimidate non-union workers and scabs. Whether or not it is an official tactic or even approved by the unions proper, they are judged by the people they represent. The more invested people become in companies via their retirement portfolios, the harder time unions are going to have. That is just the reality of the evolving market.

ChrisL said:

Oh really? Do you have proof of your allegations or are you just talking out of your butt hole?

And the NE is full of all kinds of unions. To which are you referring?

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The violent ones.

Fisher said:

I have heard too many stories from too many people from too many places to believe that the Unions proper are unaware of what their members do to harass and intimidate non-union workers and scabs. Whether or not it is an official tactic or even approved by the unions proper, they are judged by the people they represent. The more invested people become in companies via their retirement portfolios, the harder time unions are going to have. That is just the reality of the evolving market.

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Like what? Hold signs and yell scab? :lamo Give me a break!

Rocketman said:

The violent ones.

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Oooo, the violent ones. OMG! That's so scary! :lol: Just what I thought. You have nothing.

You guys just hate unions. It's like a cuss word to you guys. It doesn't matter what kind of union it is or what it does for it's members. You already have your minds made up. Shame, really.

ChrisL said:

Oh really? Do you have proof of your allegations or are you just talking out of your butt hole?

And the NE is full of all kinds of unions. To which are you referring?

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Have you seen the recent news about the independent electrical contractor in Ohio that was shot by a union vandal who was confronted while spray painting the word "Scab" on his victim's SUV? Don't count on reading about it in the Washington Post or the New York Times. But can you imagine the press eruption that would follow the shooting of, say, a political campaign worker by a rival party member spouting vicious slogans?

What makes it socially acceptable to harass, intimidate, vandalize, beat up, and even shoot someone because they are willing to do a job for a wage that you are not willing to accept? Despite epic animosity, Americans across the ideological spectrum rightly speak out against acts of political violence. Yet why do so many of us accept, and even condone, a special exception for union workers whose motives are purely economic? What is it that is so noble about giving union bosses monopoly control over certain professions that we accept it when they break heads?

Why do we accept Union Violence?
Is it because union violence holds a hallowed place in our educational pedagogy? Every school kid is raised on romantic stories of the birth of organized labor during the industrial revolution when underpaid, overworked mine and steel workers rose up to demand safer working conditions along with a decent wage. Most educated people can recite the labor side of the Homestead Strike story, citing it as an example of justifiable violence against an intransigent management that attempted to use Pinkertons to protect company property. Funny that these same educated people don't know that local police refused to evict militant strikers that had taken over a plant threatening to burn it down, or that the National Guard had to be called out to restore order after the Pinkertons had their heads blown off.

Regardless of whether you think the deplorable working conditions of the industrial revolution justified arson and murder, the Homestead Strike occurred in 1892. What possible relation does it bear to modern electrical contractors or call center operators?

Things sure turned ugly fast in the recent Verizon strike. The Associated Press reported 70 acts of sabotage in the first week. A New Jersey judge had to issue an injunction banning members of the Communications Workers of America from "Dropping, spreading, throwing, placing or otherwise causing nails, glass, cinder block, spikes, feces, clubs, rocks, screws, or puncture devices of any kind, or other object or debris to be thrown or strewn in, on, or about Verizon's driveways, parking lots, entrances, exits, vehicles and adjoining roads to any of Verizon's property or at any work site." Investigative reporters may be nowhere to be seen, but thanks to cell phone cameras some nasty videos are beginning to pop up on the web.

According to the National Institute for Labor Relations Research there have been 4,400 recorded acts of labor violence since 1991. The Teamsters lead the pack with 454, as one would expect from an organization once infiltrated by organized crime. The Teamsters have plenty of company, yet few offenders are called to account. In the Homestead tradition, law enforcement tends to melt away when a union goes on a rampage. Barely three percent of violent crimes committed by union members lead to an arrest or conviction.

This can only happen due to public acceptance. If violent behavior on the part of unions was met with the same kind of opprobrium meted out to child molesters it would disappear in a heartbeat. Let's face it, these are our neighbors. In all other respects they are normal people. They would never dream of walking into a supermarket and beating up the cashier if she charged more for a can of soup than what some union boss determined was the "right" price. Yet these same people, when dealing with differences of opinion over labor prices, think nothing of becoming raging hooligans, or worse. The only way to make them ashamed of their violent behavior is to name and shame them.

Why Do We Accept Union Violence? By Bill Frezza | Field & Stream