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How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

How many here belong to a union?


  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
A monospony is a single purchaser (similar to a monopoly, which is a single seller). I would argue union membership is mostly detrimental, and takes special circumstances to be beneficial - and that is why when states pass right-to-work-laws, people flood out of them.
We're mostly in agreement here, especially in regards to Public Sector Unions. I was simply commenting on the foolishness of blanket statements that ignore scores of individuals who actually value their representation.
 
We're mostly in agreement here, especially in regards to Public Sector Unions. I was simply commenting on the foolishness of blanket statements that ignore scores of individuals who actually value their representation.

Fair Nuff. My main qualification to that would be to note the difference between chosen representation and forced representation.
 
The post office is going broke because of email. I, like most people, buy stamps once a year for Christmas cards.
That is a good point, but look at the Post Office, they are going broke paying pensions they can no longer afford along with medical benefits. Why should be people not be expected to plan for their own futures?

when talking basic labor jobs, unions always pay more, when talking skilled performance based careers they pay less. They are for cattle that want to be treated like prize beef.

Do you have any sort of evidence a union employee is any less productive than nonunion? I am a member of a professional union. My pay and benefits are better and I don't have to fight with my crazy boss, they handle it for me. Cattle huh?
 
And what can you prove? BTW, you didn't respond to the poll. Hopefully you will. I want to know if you're in a union.
Well, if I respond to the poll then I can't see the names of who the union members are after I do. I don't know if it's just my computer that does that when I respond to polls or if it happens to everyone. Maybe you can tell me.
 
Given the right set of circumstances and market share, unionization can be a viable option and sustainable to boot. The German Auto Industry being the foremost example. That's not to say that the US labor market or auto industry is analogous, but it does throw a monkey wrench in the theory that unionization condemns an industry to insolvency by default.

It would be interesting to see inside a German union.

In the United States, it appears to me that union/company relations are completely adversarial. Nobody trusts anybody. The interests of the company, which should come first, in my opinion, don't even make a union's priority list, much less the top ten considerations. We see time and time again where a union's unrelenting demands result in a company's destruction. In whose best interest is that?

I blame union management since if the employer is perceived as fair, the union's perceived value goes down.
 
Not a clue off the top of my head, but that's not exactly pertinent to my statement. The poster I was responding to arbitrarily stated that union membership was in fact detrimental and no longer offered anything of value (presumably to consumers of said industry or the employees within.) A patently false statement, unless you make the assumption that all those who lobby for and ardently defend the right to unionize and remain so are simply masochists en masse.

Actually this is not what I said at all. There is a difference between union membership and unions themselves. Union membership are those workers who are, either forced or voluntarily a part of a union. I rarely talk about those people. When I talk about unions I talk about the Union Bosses. The ones that make all the decisions...half the time without even consulting the people that they are suppose to be representing. They, like our politicians, are in thier positions more for the power and the money than to actually help the common worker.

See I would rather Union Bosses start thinking of both the workers AND the company. And yes, the opposite is true also...the company should think of thier company AND the workers. But quite frankly right now in the US the mentality is "its them or us!". There is no middle ground and its all for one and one for oneself. When both sides start thinking more of the other side than of themselves then we will advance.
 
It would be interesting to see inside a German union.

In the United States, it appears to me that union/company relations are completely adversarial. Nobody trusts anybody. The interests of the company, which should come first, in my opinion, don't even make a union's priority list, much less the top ten considerations. We see time and time again where a union's unrelenting demands result in a company's destruction. In whose best interest is that?

I blame union management since if the employer is perceived as fair, the union's perceived value goes down.

This is exactly the mentality in the US. /double like for you!
 
Actually this is not what I said at all. There is a difference between union membership and unions themselves

Union membership are those workers who are, either forced or voluntarily a part of a union. I rarely talk about those people.

When I talk about unions I talk about the Union Bosses. The ones that make all the decisions...half the time without even consulting the people that they are suppose to be representing.

They, our politicians, are in thier positions more for the power and the money than to actually help the common worker.

See I would rather Union Bosses start thinking of both the workers AND the company. And yes, the opposite is true also...the company should think of thier company AND the workers. But quite frankly right now in the US the mentality is "its them or us!". There is no middle ground and its all for one and one for oneself. When both sides start thinking more of the other side than of themselves then we will advance.
Without the structure itself, the benefits simply wouldn't materialize. When one claims that unions yield no benefit, you're referring to membership as well by default.

Sure, I know what the term membership entails.

Who's to say? Arbitrary statements hold no weight whatsoever.

Again, who's to say? Union workers earn a good deal more than their lone wolf counterparts, even in comparable fields and market shares.

More opinion and observations. Not much to discuss in reality.
 
If i have earned them then either my employer or his competition will seek to leverage me by offering them. The competitor which most closely mirrors worth with compensation will thus have a market advantage.

Maybe in fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, particularly for the average worker with the average skill set. Without collective bargaining, such workers will typically be paid little more than a subsistence since they are easily replaced.

Then I would seek to change my position by either changing the quality or the nature of my work.

For example, I was an infantryman. Infantrymen can basically go become firemen or cops, or some form of menial labor. I wanted a higher standard of living for my family, so I earned a masters degree while working full time and became an Analyst. Now my labor is worth much more.

And what if you lacked the cerebral aptitude to obtain a masters degree? What is to become of the infantrymen who are less gifted; should they be doomed to a life of exploitation and meager subsistence? How are they to leverage a decent wage, and do you even give a damn?

On the contrary - that is a statement of self-worth, of self-power, of individual responsibility. That is a statement that I have the ability to alter my conditions through application of my abilities, that is a statement that the world shall treat me primarily as I determine.

If you think that being treated as a commodity, "according to the Supply/Demand curve," is a measure of self-worth or a pathway to self-empowerment then you are philosophically dyslexic. The world will NOT treat you as you determine. The world will treat you like a cog in the machine and throw you away at its convenience. If this is truly your philosophy, then my advice to you is to watch out, for you are sure to be broadsided by a terribly painful realization someday, especially if you are not self-employed.

Yes, I am a human being. However, my worth as a human being is beyond monetary compensation. My labor is what is under discussion here, not my being.

I don't know what hippie commune you grew up on, but the quality of your "being in the world" is under discussion here, and this quality is wholly connected to your monetary compensation whether you realize it not.


Not at all. Labor exists on a supply/demand curve, just like everything else. That's why most new lawyers actually don't get paid that well, but engineers do - because we make a ton of lawyers in this economy, and not that many engineers.

Organized labor assures a human minimum to the demand axis (as far as wages are concerned), because below that minimum lies exploitation and subsistence. This is why Walmart is so averse to their workers organizing. They would prefer that their workers remain mere object commodities on the free market.

Most lawyers, while not commanding the salaries they did 40 years ago, are not condemned to a subsistence wage. However, should this ever happen, then you can expect them to organize for they most surely will.
 
Which has resulted in lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.

Just as soon as they organize.

You seem to be forgetting that organized labor is actually good for the economy for it keeps the capital in circulation.
 
I'm not sure why you seem to have so much trouble believing that someone can be well informed about unions and still not want to belong to one.

Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. Being organized is much more likely to obtain you a better wage and benefits then not being organized. It is foolish to reject unionization.

And unions are not the only things keeping labor laws from being disregarded. There are plenty of places that aren't unionized, and that follow labor laws and safety regulations.

Let me explain something to you: It is the existential threat that organized labor presents to the non-unionized company that, not only keeps labor laws from being disregarded, but procures a better wage for the non-union employee than he would ever obtain if there were no such thing as organized labor and extant labor unions.

There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions, they aren't common.

Yes, and as organized labor declines, so does regard for labor laws. How many illegal immigrants do we have working under the table for subsistence wages now, and the government turns a blind eye?
 
Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. Being organized is much more likely to obtain you a better wage and benefits then not being organized. It is foolish to reject unionization.



Let me explain something to you: It is the existential threat that organized labor presents to the non-unionized company that, not only keeps labor laws from being disregarded, but procures a better wage for the non-union employee than he would ever obtain if there were no such thing as organized labor and extant labor unions.



Yes, and as organized labor declines, so does regard for labor laws. How many illegal immigrants do we have working under the table for subsistence wages now, and the government turns a blind eye?

Well, as for your first point, maybe, maybe not. The pooling effect of numbers may or may not reflect certain assumptions. As for your second point, unions claim that Walmart workers are exploited but simultaneously claim they are better off because of the threat of a union--which is it? Can't have both. As for your third point, what you consider subsistence wages are better than the $2.50 an hour they would get in Mexico making your flat-screen TV or else they wouldn't be here to begin with.
 
Well, as for your first point, maybe, maybe not.

The overwhelming majority of the time you will obtain a better wage through collective bargaining than you will without it. Yes, this is a fact of labor history.

The pooling effect of numbers may or may not reflect certain assumptions.

It has certainly proved effective.

As for your second point, unions claim that Walmart workers are exploited but simultaneously claim they are better off because of the threat of a union--which is it? Can't have both.

Obviously, it is both. No doubt, Walmart employees have been getting paid slightly more than they would have if there were no such thing as unions. However, they have not been getting paid nearly as much as they would have had they been organized all along.

As for your third point, what you consider subsistence wages are better than the $2.50 an hour they would get in Mexico making your flat-screen TV or else they wouldn't be here to begin with.

No, it is not better. In both instances, people are not being paid a fair wage.
 
The overwhelming majority of the time you will obtain a better wage through collective bargaining than you will without it. Yes, this is a fact of labor history.

It has certainly proved effective.

Obviously, it is both. No doubt, Walmart employees have been getting paid slightly more than they would have if there were no such thing as unions. However, they have not been getting paid nearly as much as they would have had they been organized all along.



No, it is not better. In both instances, people are not being paid a fair wage.

The hostess employees working with a union would be included in the numbers. The Hostess employee no longer employed and no longer represented would not be included in the Union wage statistics. That is the nature of how numbers are gathered. Likewise, the person with the least individual merit is likely making more but the person with the most individual merit is likely making less because of pooling effect. As I pointed out in another post, the 20 year old working beside by brother will never make as much per hour as my brother because my brother benefits from the rigid union endorsed seniority system to the detriment of the guy beside him. When you take in consideration which businesses unions go after unionizing, you might want to consider they go after the cash cows which calls into question what the true intent of unions are as they themselves are businesses.
 
Without the structure itself, the benefits simply wouldn't materialize. When one claims that unions yield no benefit, you're referring to membership as well by default.

No I don't refer to the membership as well. I think that I know what I refer to, you claiming that I refer to something else as well does not make it so. With your same logic here every time someone talks about republican politicians or democrat politicians then they are also refering to all of the people in the US as well, that just isn't so.

Again, who's to say? Union workers earn a good deal more than their lone wolf counterparts, even in comparable fields and market shares.

Yeah, union workers do earn more. But then again the states where unions are strongest (union states) also have a higher cost of living than those states where unions are not as strong (right to work states). So in the end it evens out. The difference between the two however is that in a union controlled state a buisness is more likely to fold in part due to the adversial nature of both unions and companies.
 
Maybe in fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, particularly for the average worker with the average skill set. Without collective bargaining, such workers will typically be paid little more than a subsistence since they are easily replaced.

Maybe in liberal fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, as employees who engage in collective bargaining kill the businesses they work at, and employers who do not pay employees what they are worth lose out to competition who does.

Labor is purchased just like any other good or service.

And what if you lacked the cerebral aptitude to obtain a masters degree?

Then I would have done what I also did, which was agree to sign up for 4 more years of service in order to be trained in a different career field, one with civilian applications.

What is to become of the infantrymen who are less gifted; should they be doomed to a life of exploitation and meager subsistence? How are they to leverage a decent wage, and do you even give a damn?

Actually you can make pretty good money in the non-cerebral fields. One of my buddies who got out realized that his current skill set sucked, so instead of sitting around and threatening his employer, he went and improved himself by getting trained as a plumber. Not a lot of 25 year olds with no college education can pull in $50K+. Another took some college and became an HVAC guru, and I understand is doing pretty well for himself. Another was willing to pony up the time and effort to get trained to go work on the oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico, which pay pretty dang well. All these guys faced a world in which their skill set was in low demand, and so they went and added new skill sets to allow their labor to charge a higher price in the market.

If you think that being treated as a commodity, "according to the Supply/Demand curve," is a measure of self-worth or a pathway to self-empowerment then you are philosophically dyslexic. The world will NOT treat you as you determine. The world will treat you like a cog in the machine and throw you away at its convenience. If this is truly your philosophy, then my advice to you is to watch out, for you are sure to be broadsided by a terribly painful realization someday, especially if you are not self-employed.

:) Doubtful. Because I take ownership of my own circumstances, I am willing to be proactive in insuring them, rather than resentful and coercive in forcing others to subsidize them. That is what you seem to be missing, here - there is a difference of type between our worth as individuals and the economic value of our labor at any given point in time, and recognizing that and taking ownership of yourself is a key ingredient to the free life. No, a union member is a cog in the machine - they think that their value is only found in the machine - no one threatens to go on strike all by their lonesome. Like a slave they (and you) think that they are helpless victims of their circumstances. A free man thinks his labor is worth something in and of itself, and that he has the ability to improve that value.

I don't know what hippie commune you grew up on, but the quality of your "being in the world" is under discussion here, and this quality is wholly connected to your monetary compensation whether you realize it not.

I would agree. The worth of the individual is wholly unconnected to the economic value of their labor.

Organized labor assures a human minimum to the demand axis (as far as wages are concerned), because below that minimum lies exploitation and subsistence

Sadly it does not, because the real "minimum wage" is zero. When you put in place an artificial floor on labor, you simply lower the demand for low-value labor, with a corresponding increased measure of difficulty for the poorest and most vulnerable among us. That, after all, is why we put minimum wage laws into effect in the first place.
 
And what if the pay at the new career is also an unfair pittance? What if you are working for a large company where the stockholders are being paid well, the executives are being paid well, but the workers are getting paid poorly?

We have a saying here, you might consider it when playing these silly "if" games.

If a cow sh*t butter, you wouldn't have to churn it. Performance driven people do not have to worry about these scenarios.
 
The post office is going broke because of email. I, like most people, buy stamps once a year for Christmas cards.



Do you have any sort of evidence a union employee is any less productive than nonunion? I am a member of a professional union. My pay and benefits are better and I don't have to fight with my crazy boss, they handle it for me. Cattle huh?

Yep cattle. Public unions are a drain on the taxpayers and private sector unions drive up costs creating another hurdle in a global market. Why are people afraid to work on their own merit?
 
Just as soon as they organize.

You seem to be forgetting that organized labor is actually good for the economy for it keeps the capital in circulation.

On the contrary, organized labor is bad for the economy, as it reduces labor, aggregate standards of living, innovation and growth,
 
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I belong to the IWW, joined in October.
 
The hostess employees working with a union would be included in the numbers. The Hostess employee no longer employed and no longer represented would not be included in the Union wage statistics. That is the nature of how numbers are gathered. Likewise, the person with the least individual merit is likely making more but the person with the most individual merit is likely making less because of pooling effect. As I pointed out in another post, the 20 year old working beside by brother will never make as much per hour as my brother because my brother benefits from the rigid union endorsed seniority system to the detriment of the guy beside him. When you take in consideration which businesses unions go after unionizing, you might want to consider they go after the cash cows which calls into question what the true intent of unions are as they themselves are businesses.

You can include the Hostess employees if you want. It is still not going to change the fact that union workers have historically made considerably more in wages and benefits than non-union workers of the same job status.

Seniority counts in unions, as does in elsewhere, as it should.
 
You can include the Hostess employees if you want. It is still not going to change the fact that union workers have historically made considerably more in wages and benefits than non-union workers of the same job status.

Seniority counts in unions, as does in elsewhere, as it should.

seniority in the same pay system is fair; having 2 totally separate pay and benefit systems for the same job is not so fair IMHO.
 
On the contrary, organized labor is bad for the economy, as it reduces labor, aggregate standards of living, innovation and growth,

Nonsense. The biggest economic boom this country has ever experienced followed the rise of the labor unions. This was no mere coincidence.

The more money the workers earn, the more money they can spend. Labor unions force companies to do what they are unable to do on their own initiative as they compete against other companies, namely, pay an adequate wage to their workers (who are also consumers). Thus it is a win-win situation for everyone, that is until one company decides to outsource its labor to some third-world ****hole where unions are unheard of and workers can be exploited for pennies on the dollar. Then the other companies are forced to follow suit in order to survive.
 
I've never had the opportunity to join a union. They are rare in SC.

Sometimes I wish I could. They may be corrupt and over grasping, but dealing with an employer as a powerless individual sucks.
 
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