View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #771
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    MoSurveyor's Avatar
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And that's well and good, but when you're talking about minimum wage, at least stick to what minimum wage actually is.
    I didn't know we were talking about minimum wage (and if we are, which state's minimum are we going to use???). I thought we were talking about low-paying jobs. I'd say under $10/hr is low-paying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Stupidity has nothing to do with IQ, it has to do with how one deals with data. If you're going to talk about IQ, you are stuck talking about retardation, which is often people with an IQ below 70. You can have stupid people who score in the genius IQ range.
    Then there's no objective standard and everyone is stupid in someone's eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't think we should go that far, but I think we need to require people, like it or not, to pull their own weight and for those who just refuse to do anything, there has to come a point where we say "we've given you every chance under the sun, we've given you every opportunity and you've refused to make an effort, thus, we're just not going to support you anymore."
    I don't believe welfare in MO lasts past two years - nor unemp ins for more than 6 months. For the past few years that's been modified, as it should have been, to adjust to the extreme economic circumstances. I don't agree with lifetime support, either, and that isn't what I've been talking about. I've been talking about the working poor. If someone is willing to spend 40 hours/wk or more supporting society and it's various functions, they shouldn't have to live in squalor.


    Than you, too, are a liberal in my eyes. If your body isn't designed to withstand the environment, with some exceptions like accidents from sports or other common situations, then you shouldn't be allowed to pass those poor genes on to the next generation. Mankind as an animal is going downhill fast because the unfit are still allowed to survive. If we can let people die from an inability to adjust to society we should certainly let them die from an inability to adjust to the biological environment. If you haven't got the right genes then you just haven't got them.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-03-13 at 08:56 AM.
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  2. #772
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You can't trade what no one else wants, either, and nothing (with extremely rare exceptions as noted) gets produced without at least a foreseeable buyer (demand).


    Let's try it this way:

    1 In the beginning there was hunger and Adam felt it was bad. (demand is born!)
    2 Then Adam reached out his hand plucked the fruit of the tree and feed himself and want, "Yum!" ((Labor is used to create supply to fulfill the demand. If Adam had not been hungry - no demand - there would have been no reason for him to pluck the fruit - no supply. We note he didn't pluck the flowers on the ground as there was no demand for flowers.))
    3 After weeks of eating fruit Adam saw that Joe was eating nuts and, being tired of just fruit, wanted some nuts. (demand)
    4 Joe, having tired of nuts and looking for something else to eat (demand), and Adam talked and agreed to an exchange of fruit for nuts (trade agreements!)

    Eventually we get around to hoarding and spoilage, which leads to money, but virtually all economic ideas can be traced back to the above situation - the simple hunter-gatherer barter system. Adam doesn't expend labor and create product until he has a demand for said product. Investors work the same way. Investors won't sink their money into an endeavour without some kind of market in which to sell it. Without the foreseeable demand of the market capital is not invested.
    couple of problems in this model

    Here, I'll fix it for you.

    1 In the beginning there was hunger and Adam felt it was bad. (demand is born!)
    2 Then Adam reached out his hand plucked the fruit of the tree and feed himself and want, "Yum!" ((Labor is used to create supply to fulfill the demand. If Adam had not been hungry - no demand - there would have been no reason for him to pluck the fruit - no supply. We note he didn't pluck the flowers on the ground as there was no demand for flowers.))
    2a. Note that as of yet no trade is taking place, nor really economic activity of any kind
    3 After weeks of eating fruit Adam saw that Joe was eating nuts and, being tired of just fruit, wanted some nuts. (demand)
    4 Joe, having tired of nuts and looking for something else to eat (theoretical demand), and Adam talked and agreed to an exchange of fruit for nuts (trade agreements!)
    4b Sadly, Joe had eaten all the nuts he picked, and Adam had eaten all his fruit
    5. Happily, each then returned to their plot of land and picked more (supply!) so that they could trade (expressed demand!)
    Theoretical demand is infinite. Real demand, the kind that you get on a chart with price and supply, is that which is expressed through trade. Technically I have a demand for bunnies, if I could just get them to pull a wooden sleigh like in the Hobbit. But until I have supply to purchase said rabbits, my "demand" makes not a wit of difference. Right now I want a motorcycle (theoretical demand). But until either I build up the surplus supply or another loans it to me, I cannot purchase (expressed demand) said two-wheeled toy, and the number of sales of motorcycles remains sans cpwill.

    Supply>Demand, when Demand = Actual, Real, Demand.

  3. #773
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    couple of problems in this model

    Here, I'll fix it for you.

    Theoretical demand is infinite. Real demand, the kind that you get on a chart with price and supply, is that which is expressed through trade. Technically I have a demand for bunnies, if I could just get them to pull a wooden sleigh like in the Hobbit. But until I have supply to purchase said rabbits, my "demand" makes not a wit of difference. Right now I want a motorcycle (theoretical demand). But until either I build up the surplus supply or another loans it to me, I cannot purchase (expressed demand) said two-wheeled toy, and the number of sales of motorcycles remains sans cpwill.

    Supply>Demand, when Demand = Actual, Real, Demand.
    I'm glad you pointed out in the modified example that demand came first. Sorry, but Adam's demand for food is what prompted the labor of reaching out and plucking it. Without the demand nothing would have happened - including the trades with Joe. If you want to call it "theoretical" demand, I don't care since that's exactly what I've been saying. Here, let me quote it for you again since you missed it several times already,: "Without a foreseeable" (in your terms, "theoretical") "demand there will be no capital invested to create supply". As I've said, you get no supply without a foreseeable demand - which includes a pricing component. In fact, you very, very seldom get innovation or invention - both of which drive business - without demand. "Necessity is the mother of invention."


    And of course your demand makes a difference. Just like everything else, without the demand there would be no need for a supply to fill it. If you don't want a motorcycle then you have no need for the "supply" to buy one, so you won't work those off hours to make some extra cash.

    Until you figure out how to get those bunnies to pull the sleigh on your own then you have no demand for bunnies - though you DO apparently have a some odd demand for bunnies that pull sleighs. I've seen bunnies that pull sleighs (and I'd bet a few are for hire) but neither your wife nor mine would go for it.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-03-13 at 10:13 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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