View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #761
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ability comes with experience - as does knowledge. For example:
    On a more basic level ability obviously doesn't come with just experience. A klutz is never going to make a good surgeon but both could mop floors. Knowledge doesn't always come with time-on-job, either. Sadly, some people just never get it no matter how many times or how many different ways you tell them. In the end, the only recourse for those people is rote learning, which won't get them very far.
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Yeah - this "capital" just magically appeared from the heavens one day.
    Not at all, it was produced.

    You know as well as I do that without demand there can be no sales and no money to be made - hence no capital invested.
    No, we are speaking of very different things. as evidenced by:

    Not at all. Demand does and must come first, followed by supply.
    You are claiming that "demand" causes items to magically come into existence. I am pointing out that first they must be produced. And then, in order for the sale to occur, the individual expressing the "demand" must have his own produce to trade. Demand is a function of supply, not the other way around.

    I admit that they feed off each other but some kernel has to start the cycle.
    yes, and that kernel is not demand, else the cycle would never have started in the first place. You cannot trade what you do not have.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    On a more basic level ability obviously doesn't come with just experience. A klutz is never going to make a good surgeon but both could mop floors.
    Now you are confusing baselines with direction. A klutz becomes a better surgeon than he formerly was with experience, as does someone with superior hand-eye coordination.

    Knowledge doesn't always come with time-on-job, either.
    Pretty much all the time yes, it does. That's why we call it "experience", and it's why it's a valuable item to have in the job market.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    As anyone who's ever used Excel knows, there's a lot of difference between using the data provided in a spreadsheet and knowing how to make the spreadsheet itself. Access is an even more dramatic difference. You're almost ahead to just learn Visual Basic and be done with it. If your job doesn't require you to make spreadsheets or program databases then learning those skills is education, not experience.
    Bingo. It takes time to improve ones'self, and Americans tend to improve themselves over time. This makes them more valuable in the job market, meaning that if their employer does not compensate them what they are worth, they have the ability to get that higher compensation elsewhere.

    The problem isn't the education system, it's the people who use it and what they're taught when NOT at school.
    You will get no argument from me that our broken family structure is behind quite a lot of individual failure in our society. however, yes, the problem is the education system, which takes large amounts of resources per student to achieve poor results.

    Hard to improve your lot if there's no one willing to pay you for your labor and you have no money to invest. About 4% of the population is in that position right now.
    True enough, which is why I oppose artificial price floors that make those people too expensive to hire.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    20% of the jobs pay less that $10 an hour. Show me that 20% of the workforce is under 21 and we can agree. I won't hold my breath but I'll admit I haven't researched it lately so you may be right.
    The federal minimum wage is $7.25, not $10.


    As I've just pointed out to cp - half the workforce IS "stupid" with an IQ of <100. You can't take your own experience and those in your personal little social group as an indication of the world as a whole.
    That doesn't make them necessarily stupid, just below an average.

    For those that actually ARE "lazy" or "don't want to work" - and I know a few of those - that's the path they've been put on and I have no reason to believe any amount of help will change them, now. Maybe when they were younger but not now.
    Then let them starve to death.
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not at all, it was produced.

    No, we are speaking of very different things. as evidenced by:

    You are claiming that "demand" causes items to magically come into existence. I am pointing out that first they must be produced. And then, in order for the sale to occur, the individual expressing the "demand" must have his own produce to trade. Demand is a function of supply, not the other way around.

    yes, and that kernel is not demand, else the cycle would never have started in the first place. You cannot trade what you do not have.
    You can't trade what no one else wants, either, and nothing (with extremely rare exceptions as noted) gets produced without at least a foreseeable buyer (demand).


    Let's try it this way:

    1 In the beginning there was hunger and Adam felt it was bad. (demand is born!)
    2 Then Adam reached out his hand plucked the fruit of the tree and feed himself and want, "Yum!" ((Labor is used to create supply to fulfill the demand. If Adam had not been hungry - no demand - there would have been no reason for him to pluck the fruit - no supply. We note he didn't pluck the flowers on the ground as there was no demand for flowers.))
    3 After weeks of eating fruit Adam saw that Joe was eating nuts and, being tired of just fruit, wanted some nuts. (demand)
    4 Joe, having tired of nuts and looking for something else to eat (demand), and Adam talked and agreed to an exchange of fruit for nuts (trade agreements!)

    Eventually we get around to hoarding and spoilage, which leads to money, but virtually all economic ideas can be traced back to the above situation - the simple hunter-gatherer barter system. Adam doesn't expend labor and create product until he has a demand for said product. Investors work the same way. Investors won't sink their money into an endeavour without some kind of market in which to sell it. Without the foreseeable demand of the market capital is not invested.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-03-13 at 02:35 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Bingo. It takes time to improve ones'self, and Americans tend to improve themselves over time. This makes them more valuable in the job market, meaning that if their employer does not compensate them what they are worth, they have the ability to get that higher compensation elsewhere.

    True enough, which is why I oppose artificial price floors that make those people too expensive to hire.
    Your lower-than-minimum wage jobs would leave even more people in a position where they have no time for education. If industry was given a choice they'd work people 16 hours a day for nothing. Of course, that's detrimental to economic health but individual businesses can't and don't look at that. All they care about is THEIR bottom line, which is as it should be. It's our job as The People to regulate business in such a way as to maintain a balance between what's good for business and what's good for society as a whole. Run amok capitalism is self-destructive - even the best engines have governors.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You will get no argument from me that our broken family structure is behind quite a lot of individual failure in our society. however, yes, the problem is the education system, which takes large amounts of resources per student to achieve poor results.
    The students are the crux of your "failed" equation. It should be self-evident that poor students will cost more to train. Improve the students enough and you could eliminate schools completely. Sadly that won't happen in our lifetime but it's the ultimate goal.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #768
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Now you are confusing baselines with direction. A klutz becomes a better surgeon than he formerly was with experience, as does someone with superior hand-eye coordination.
    Hey - I've been nice, too, but now you've stepped over the line. As a surveyor I've forgotten more about baselines and direction than you'll even learn!


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Pretty much all the time yes, it does. That's why we call it "experience", and it's why it's a valuable item to have in the job market.
    How much more can you learn about mopping floors after a few weeks of doing it? Many jobs - and especially those at the bottom end - have an extremely short experience timeline.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #769
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The federal minimum wage is $7.25, not $10.
    That's still what it is on MO, too, though we're considering raising it to $7.75. I took $10/hour because the top end of the bottom quintile is ~$20k/year - IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That doesn't make them necessarily stupid, just below an average.
    I thought that WAS "stupid" - or at least a good working definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Then let them starve to death.
    Works for me if that's what we want. I'm a Darwinist at heart. I think we should ban most medicines as well, unless you want to agree to sterilization. No reason to saddle the next generation with those poor genes.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #770
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's still what it is on MO, too, though we're considering raising it to $7.75. I took $10/hour because the top end of the bottom quintile is ~$20k/year - IIRC.
    And that's well and good, but when you're talking about minimum wage, at least stick to what minimum wage actually is.

    I thought that WAS "stupid" - or at least a good working definition.
    Stupidity has nothing to do with IQ, it has to do with how one deals with data. If you're going to talk about IQ, you are stuck talking about retardation, which is often people with an IQ below 70. You can have stupid people who score in the genius IQ range.

    Works for me if that's what we want. I'm a Darwinist at heart. I think we should ban most medicines as well, unless you want to agree to sterilization. No reason to saddle the next generation with those poor genes.
    I don't think we should go that far, but I think we need to require people, like it or not, to pull their own weight and for those who just refuse to do anything, there has to come a point where we say "we've given you every chance under the sun, we've given you every opportunity and you've refused to make an effort, thus, we're just not going to support you anymore."
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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