View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #751
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I've been gone awhile ...

    Insurance providers give a total cost (per person) to insure the group, they do not break it down into "it's $XXX for your young employees and $YYY for your older employees".
    Fair point - the ACA now requires community rating. So now, yes, they do.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not at all - experience counts as well. Doctors, for example. Or, my field (analysis) for another. Someone who has performed 1,000 open-heart-surgeries is simply able to charge more for the 1,001st than someone who has done 3, because their experience means that they are bringing a superior product to the table. Someone who has devised six successful major advertising campaigns for large multinationals before is more valuable and able to charge more for his seventh than he was for his first - because the product he is bringing to bear (his mind and abilities) is superior.
    What you're showing is proof of ability (or an increase in skill, if you prefer), not just years in service. The doctor that botches one in a hundred heart surgeries isn't going to make as much for the 1001st as the guy who only botched one of 1000 and he may not even make as much as another doctor doing his 201st with no errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    My argument rests upon the idea that people tend to increase in experience and abilities and knowledge; which, except for our perennially unemployed, generally is the case. Formal education is a nice-add-on (and necessary in some job fields), but not required for the broad populace.
    I'm not necessarily taking about formal education. Even if you only look at spreadsheets for your job but learn on your own how to use Excel you're more educated. That's not the same as "experience".

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is technically not true - remember that the low-ends of the bell curve tend not to have jobs, but rather have disability payments. Or, their spouse works and they stay at home.
    And it doesn't include all the smart people that are sitting at home because of other problems or have turned to a life of crime. While most of the dumb criminals end up in jails - and on the stat sheets - most of the smart ones don't. One only has to look at Wall Street to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    we spend large sums on education. we get middling to poor results because we pump the money through a wasteful, sclerotic, bloated, union monster that serves it's own ends and ****'s over our children.
    While I agree we have problems with education I certainly do not believe private industry can do better. In fact, it's been shown that it can't given the same goal as public education entities.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I will simply quote my avatar here, another proponent from America's beginning of the wonderful manner in which this nation offers self-improvement:
    Of course, nothing has changed in 200 years. The poor can still pick up their lot and move west to settle down on any unused land and start farming with no one to squeal about it.


    Show me Locke's "commons" and we can move forward on this point. But you can't because it's all been bought up. A person can no longer put forth his hand a pick fruit that is only his because of the labor he spent picking it. Today he must buy the tree or access rights to it or it's taken away from him and he's thrown in jail. Times change and that path of philosophy disappears right along with the "commons" they rest on.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-02-13 at 08:22 AM.
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  3. #753
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Fair point - the ACA now requires community rating. So now, yes, they do.
    From a company's perspective, insurance carries have done this for decades for group policies.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Okay, I've been polite to you so far. But you say that again and I am reaching through this screen and knife-handing you

    Marines consider that an insult. We run towards the sound of gunfire, not the sight of the chowhall.
    My apologies - I'm sure my brother would thunk me a good one if he were here.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    My apologies - I'm sure my brother would thunk me a good one if he were here.
    As well you would deserve.

  6. #756
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    What you're showing is proof of ability (or an increase in skill, if you prefer), not just years in service. The doctor that botches one in a hundred heart surgeries isn't going to make as much for the 1001st as the guy who only botched one of 1000 and he may not even make as much as another doctor doing his 201st with no errors.
    Ability comes with experience - as does knowledge. For example:

    I'm not necessarily taking about formal education. Even if you only look at spreadsheets for your job but learn on your own how to use Excel you're more educated. That's not the same as "experience".
    learning Excel takes an amount of time, and a worker who has dealt with spreadsheets longer is more likely to be better at it. As Americans age, they increase their knowledge, experience, ability, etc., and with that, their bargaining power and thus their compensation.

    And it doesn't include all the smart people that are sitting at home because of other problems or have turned to a life of crime. While most of the dumb criminals end up in jails - and on the stat sheets - most of the smart ones don't. One only has to look at Wall Street to see that.
    Cute, but if you want the criminals, you need Congress. Most smarter folks are in the workforce because they are well-paid for it. More of our low-intelligence folks... not as much. Many of them are "in" a workforce, but not the one that we count.

    While I agree we have problems with education I certainly do not believe private industry can do better. In fact, it's been shown that it can't given the same goal as public education entities.
    There is an entire forum devoted to that, suffice to say, the amount of money we expend on education isn't the problem - the system we pump that money through is.

    Of course, nothing has changed in 200 years. The poor can still pick up their lot and move west to settle down on any unused land and start farming with no one to squeal about it.
    Of course plenty has changed in two hundred years. It is now much easier for the poor to improve their lot than to go through the risk and labor of starting wilderness-clearing, indian-fighting, and subsistence-farming.

  7. #757
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and yet they were able to live beneath their means and retire in relative comfort, whereas the boomers appear to have wasted more wealth than any generation in human history.....
    Where do you think all the consumer spending to develop all your toys came from??? Call it wasted if you like - as soon as you hand over your computers (all types including iWhatever's), your cell phone(s) including the virtually limitless communications (no cable TV or cheap long distance when I was a kid!), and most satellite services including GPS. I'm sure there are a million other things but they're so second nature to me now I hardly think about them - like central A/C (or A/C at all!) - which only rich people used to have.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #758
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Where do you think all the consumer spending to develop all your toys came from?
    Consumer spending didn't develop my toys. Capital did.

    Call it wasted if you like - as soon as you hand over your computers (all types including iWhatever's), your cell phone(s) including the virtually limitless communications (no cable TV or cheap long distance when I was a kid!), and most satellite services including GPS. I'm sure there are a million other things but they're so second nature to me now I hardly think about them - like central A/C (or A/C at all!) - which only rich people used to have.
    You are putting the cart before the horse and mistaking product for producer.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ability comes with experience - as does knowledge. For example:

    learning Excel takes an amount of time, and a worker who has dealt with spreadsheets longer is more likely to be better at it. As Americans age, they increase their knowledge, experience, ability, etc., and with that, their bargaining power and thus their compensation.
    As anyone who's ever used Excel knows, there's a lot of difference between using the data provided in a spreadsheet and knowing how to make the spreadsheet itself. Access is an even more dramatic difference. You're almost ahead to just learn Visual Basic and be done with it. If your job doesn't require you to make spreadsheets or program databases then learning those skills is education, not experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    There is an entire forum devoted to that, suffice to say, the amount of money we expend on education isn't the problem - the system we pump that money through is.
    The problem isn't the education system, it's the people who use it and what they're taught when NOT at school.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Of course plenty has changed in two hundred years. It is now much easier for the poor to improve their lot than to go through the risk and labor of starting wilderness-clearing, indian-fighting, and subsistence-farming.
    Hard to improve your lot if there's no one willing to pay you for your labor and you have no money to invest. About 4% of the population is in that position right now.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #760
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Consumer spending didn't develop my toys. Capital did.
    Yeah - this "capital" just magically appeared from the heavens one day.

    You know as well as I do that without demand there can be no sales and no money to be made - hence no capital invested.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are putting the cart before the horse and mistaking product for producer.
    Not at all. Demand does and must come first, followed by supply. I admit that they feed off each other but some kernel has to start the cycle. There are a few - very few - exceptions but not many. Pet Rocks might be one; I never saw the draw for that one. As far as I can tell that was pure sales hype. LOL!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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