View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #741
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    He didn't spend 4 or 8 years pissing and moaning about Carter. That's the difference. He also succeeded, another difference.
    I have no doubt your "proper response" to the oil embargo would have been an invasion of Saudi Arabia.



    Early 80's was nothing compared to the load of crap that came down in 2008. I saw both - but you can look at just about any economic chart and it'll show the same.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    WOW! Zombie Thread!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    MOST people get their health insurance through work so, yes, it's the same. The twenty year old janitor pays the same monthly amount for medical as I do, and the company pays as much for his participation as it pays for my participation.
    Except that was not the point, now, was it. Rather it was that the health insurance for that sixty year old costs more for the employer than it does for the twenty year old young buck. Since the employer is paying more in benefits and paycheck, as folks get older, the fact remains that Americans compensation increases as they age and move from job to job.

  3. #743
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    WOW! Zombie Thread!!!


    Except that was not the point, now, was it. Rather it was that the health insurance for that sixty year old costs more for the employer than it does for the twenty year old young buck. Since the employer is paying more in benefits and paycheck, as folks get older, the fact remains that Americans compensation increases as they age and move from job to job.
    I've been gone awhile ...

    Insurance providers give a total cost (per person) to insure the group, they do not break it down into "it's $XXX for your young employees and $YYY for your older employees".
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  4. #744
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The upsurge in that life-style started with my generation - don't kid yourself.
    On the contrary, it's as old as the nation and as American as apple Pie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    "The prudent, penniless beginner in the world, labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land, for himself; then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This, say its advocates, is free labor---the just and generous, and prosperous system, which opens the way for all---gives hope to all, and energy, and progress, and improvement of condition to all."
    What started with your generation was spending more than you made, and thus destroying yourself with debt because ya'll (collectively speaking, of the boomers) are a bunch of narcissistic wannabe philosophers with no discipline or sense of personal responsibility.

    The argument has been waged many times on this forum and always with the same result. On average I'm stick in my parents economic class just as my kids are stuck in my economic class.
    While it is true that often levels of success relative to others replicate throughout generations, this is because of how people are taught and raised to live. However, fortunately, on average, you are also wrong. People make more than their parents did today, on average. They just also spend more - lots more. From the liberal-leaning Brookings Institute:

    ...Adults who were children in 1968—those who were in their 30s and 40s at the end of the century—tend to have more income than did their parents’ generation at the same age. Median family income rose by 29 percent between the two generations, from $55,600 in inflation-adjusted dollars to $71,900.1 Mean or average family incomes, which are more strongly influenced by incomes at the top of the income distribution, grew even more rapidly, from $61,600 to $88,000 (a 43 percent increase). Income growth occurred not only at the median but throughout the income distribution, as shown in Figure 1. When parents and children are each ranked by family income and divided into quintiles, the dividing lines between groups are always higher for the children’s generation than the parents’ generation...


    There is also this neat little nugget:

    ...Children born to parents in the bottom fifth are more likely to surpass their parents’ income than are children from any other background..
    Which is pleasing enough. Generally, only a minority of people in the bottom fifth and a minority of people in the top fifth are people who match the relative experience of their parents. Although there are indeed effects due to superior social and formal education, in no income quintile do a majority of parents produce children who replicate their relative results.

    How many here belong a union in the public or private sector?  Why? or Why not?-relative-family-income-jpg

    There may be minor modifications to compensation based off experience - if and only if experience is applicable to the job. An "experienced" burger flipper isn't going to get much extra compensation compared to the rookie even he spends his entire life flipping burgers.
    Most companies include pay raises by time, however, within the field of burger flipping, experienced burger flippers typically become lead burger flippers and then assistant managers of burger flipping.

    Unless you manage to get into the top 2% of the workforce (or are part of a union) you have no negotiating power.
    not at all, you have negotiating power relative to the need for the labor you can provide. As you increase in experience and knowledge, so does your negotiating power. If you have always simply taken whatever was offered, then I'm sorry to be able to tell you this so late, but you have missed out. Nor does a union give you bargaining power - in fact, it takes away your bargaining power by legally banning you from negotiating at all. You are instead required to simply "trust" others to negotiate on your behalf as well as you would, and that your labor (and therefore deserved compensation) is "about average" to the worth of everyone else's.

    One has only to look at the compensation of most American engineers and doctors to see that - and those jobs actually DO have some minute level of real demand.
    every job has a level of demand. otherwise it wouldn't be there.

    Your chart doesn't show pay, it shows income. As I've pointed out for the third time, now, your chart is useless for any evidence of increased pay.
    This is getting hard to bear with. You cannot be this obtuse.



    That is income. It is pay. Not Compensation. That is strictly the money that flows from the employer to the employee. The paychecks of Americans get bigger relative to the median income as they get older.

  5. #745
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You must have a pretty broad definition of "field".
    My current field is "Marine". If you want to go by Enlisted ranks only, then we currently have 10. However, one can skip ahead from any rank to officer ranks by going through OCS, which has another 9 possible ranks. Or, if you like, you can go warrant officer (5).

  6. #746
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, it's as old as the nation and as American as apple Pie.
    As opposed to my parent's generation you so neatly skewered. Most boomers don't/didn't work 40 years at the same place whereas many of our parents did.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #747
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I suspect part of our impasse is in definition. "Experience" to me means time in the same or similar job. It has nothing to do with learning skills beyond those needed for the job at hand. That's education, not experience. As I noted before, a fifty year old, life-long janitor makes the same as a twenty year old janitor that's been on the job a couple of years. Once you've picked up all the skills needed for a job, pay increases pretty much stop - except for the often insufficient increases to compensate for inflation. I have no doubt that more education leads to different jobs with more responsibility and the subsequent increase in compensation for assuming those responsibilities.
    Not at all - experience counts as well. Doctors, for example. Or, my field (analysis) for another. Someone who has performed 1,000 open-heart-surgeries is simply able to charge more for the 1,001st than someone who has done 3, because their experience means that they are bringing a superior product to the table. Someone who has devised six successful major advertising campaigns for large multinationals before is more valuable and able to charge more for his seventh than he was for his first - because the product he is bringing to bear (his mind and abilities) is superior.

    Your whole argument seems to rest on the idea that people will increase their education, which is not always the case.
    My argument rests upon the idea that people tend to increase in experience and abilities and knowledge; which, except for our perennially unemployed, generally is the case. Formal education is a nice-add-on (and necessary in some job fields), but not required for the broad populace.

    It's a sad fact of life that half the workforce has an IQ below 100.
    That is technically not true - remember that the low-ends of the bell curve tend not to have jobs, but rather have disability payments. Or, their spouse works and they stay at home.

    For those that can't (and the few that won't) learn, they are stuck - or rather WE are stuck since society pays for it's own ignorance in ignoring the problem for so many decades. Keep spending less on education and trying to relieve poverty and things will only get worse. It's much more difficult to learn if you're already doing all you can just to feed your family.
    we spend large sums on education. we get middling to poor results because we pump the money through a wasteful, sclerotic, bloated, union monster that serves it's own ends and ****'s over our children.

    I agree the Welfare State sucks, but I can also see from decades of keeping my eyes open that we have done little to resolve the problems that create poverty, lack of education and little concern - even disdain - for the poor.
    Forgive me, but according to the logic you have presented, your decades of observation have not improved your ability to make a judgement call, and therefore your argument here is moot.

    Every grimace of disgust and every upturned nose only increase our costs down the road. That kind of negative reinforcement only makes the problem worse.
    I will simply quote my avatar here, another proponent from America's beginning of the wonderful manner in which this nation offers self-improvement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
    I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

  8. #748
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    My current field is "Marine". If you want to go by Enlisted ranks only, then we currently have 10. However, one can skip ahead from any rank to officer ranks by going through OCS, which has another 9 possible ranks. Or, if you like, you can go warrant officer (5).
    Every rule has an exception and the military has always been overly redundant - not that I disagree with that philosophy - for them. But I was under the impression platoon leader was a different job than battalion commander. Guess it's all the same. LOL!

    Like engineers, once you hit manage (officers) you're no longer an engineer. Isn't "I work for a living" still a common saying among NCO's?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-02-13 at 07:53 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #749
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    As opposed to my parent's generation you so neatly skewered. Most boomers don't/didn't work 40 years at the same place whereas many of our parents did.
    and yet they were able to live beneath their means and retire in relative comfort, whereas the boomers appear to have wasted more wealth than any generation in human history.....

  10. #750
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And here I though all Marines were soldiers. LOL!
    Okay, I've been polite to you so far. But you say that again and I am reaching through this screen and knife-handing you


    Marines consider that an insult. We run towards the sound of gunfire, not the sight of the chowhall.

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