View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #731
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Well that's just nonsense. If everyone had a college degree or two years in trade school we would still need burger flippers and janitors. Someone has to work for a living, we can't all be at the top.
    Everyone works for a living, no matter what you and your ilk seem to think. See, the burger flippers and the janitors are supposed to be the unskilled, the young, the kids in high school who are doing it for money on the side, whose majority expenses are covered by their parents. They work while they are going to school and they learn a work ethic. By the time they turn 18 and graduate from high school, they can either go to college, or move up the corporate ladder into management and open up another spot beneath them for another young worker.

    You seem to think that people who are stupid or lazy or don't want to work ought to get the same benefits as everyone who does. No, they don't deserve them, they haven't EARNED them!
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  2. #732
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Everyone works for a living, no matter what you and your ilk seem to think. See, the burger flippers and the janitors are supposed to be the unskilled, the young, the kids in high school who are doing it for money on the side, whose majority expenses are covered by their parents. They work while they are going to school and they learn a work ethic. By the time they turn 18 and graduate from high school, they can either go to college, or move up the corporate ladder into management and open up another spot beneath them for another young worker.

    You seem to think that people who are stupid or lazy or don't want to work ought to get the same benefits as everyone who does. No, they don't deserve them, they haven't EARNED them!
    spot on. If you are 35 y/o and still working some minimum wage job...you are either mentally deficient (in which case you have my sympathy and you deserve help) or you are just unmotivated and haven't earned anything more.
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  3. #733
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    If you move up the ladder then it's a different job, not the same one. You continue to misunderstand my position.
    if you want to call it something else that's fine. Fine: Most Americans Move Up The Ladder by increasing their compensation or level of responsibility over time as they change from one job to the other. The immobile labor force where Dad Worked At The Plant For 40 Years Doing The Same Thing is no longer a common reality. Now Dad starts off doing grunt work for one employer, and ends up doing better work for someone else, and then does the same thing three or four more times.

    No, you made direct reference to my "unabl(ity) to self-improve to the point where you are able to command superior levels of compensation.", which not only assumes I didn't self-improve but also assumes I didn't command superior levels of compensation - by which I assume you mean more pay.
    no, pay is part of compensation. If you believe that American workers are held down and immobile despite the overwhelming evidence that indicates the opposite .

    You have obviously never looked at how employers pay for group health insurance, though it's possible there have been radical changes in the last four years since my semi-retirement.
    Do you wish to make the argument that health insurance for a 60 year old costs less than health insurance for a 25 year old? Because that is what we would have to see for your claim that Americans do not increase their net compensation to be accurate.

    I see. So when you took your current job you didn't have these skills.
    Or my current level of education. I took the job in order to get the skills, the experience, and the education, and now thanks to it I can move upwards and onwards to a new position where I will get new skills and experience and education and move onwards and upwards from there. Just like most Americans.

    Do you honestly believe without these additional skills you could "command superior levels of compensation"?
    Strictly off of education, yes. But not to the same degree, no.

    My guess to your answer is "no". Keep making my point and we'll eventually get there.
    We are making my point. Americans improve themselves and thus climb the ladder as they age, indicating that in fact a mobile workforce is full of people who are constantly improving themselves and their position, meaning that labor does, in fact, have negotiating power with employers.

    So you believe each field has eight levels of hierarchy? I supposed that's possible but it seems pretty top-heavy compared to reality.
    Well, my current employer has 24. One potential future employer has 15, with about 10 subsets for increased pay within each of those 15. That's probably rather higher than average - but the point remains that since people are continually moving up the ladder, the idea that each job change means a job creation is ignorant.

    Instead of showing statistics on what people expect to do, why don't you show statistics on what people did last year and see if the two are even close?
    that is what I showed you, Mo. Do you have difficulty reading charts? As People Age, Their Pay Increases. Social Security, for example, figures that the average American get's an average of a 2% raise every year, annualized.
    Last edited by cpwill; 02-05-13 at 08:38 AM.

  4. #734
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It was Bush and the bankers that put us here. You're trying to blame the current administration for having to clean up that mountain of crap left-overs.

    Ronnie had a mountain of crap to clean up, too, from the oil embargo/rising oil prices and the long-term aftermath of Vietnam. He also spend money like crazy. Would you like to slam him, too?
    He didn't spend 4 or 8 years pissing and moaning about Carter. That's the difference. He also succeeded, another difference.
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  5. #735
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    I would never join a union operating in the mode most usual now in America. The relentless push for wage and pension increases proudces short-term, illusionary gains (wage increases without increases in productvity are inflationary). In many cases, unions act as a major force opposing social mobility from the lowest strata and immgration, to say nothing about development of international trade. And forcing people who do not want to join pay dues is simply thuggery. (Don't even start me on political activity by the unions of supposed public servants - that is a pathology).

    Having said that, I do not see unions as inherently evil. There's nothing wrong with people organizing to help each other, negotiate collectively, set up mutual funds, provide training opportunities, etc. The short-sighted perpetual extortion needs not to be the only mode of operation.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 02-07-13 at 11:28 AM.

  6. #736
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Do you wish to make the argument that health insurance for a 60 year old costs less than health insurance for a 25 year old? Because that is what we would have to see for your claim that Americans do not increase their net compensation to be accurate.
    MOST people get their health insurance through work so, yes, it's the same. The twenty year old janitor pays the same monthly amount for medical as I do, and the company pays as much for his participation as it pays for my participation.
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  7. #737
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    if you want to call it something else that's fine. Fine: Most Americans Move Up The Ladder by increasing their compensation or level of responsibility over time as they change from one job to the other. The immobile labor force where Dad Worked At The Plant For 40 Years Doing The Same Thing is no longer a common reality. Now Dad starts off doing grunt work for one employer, and ends up doing better work for someone else, and then does the same thing three or four more times.
    The upsurge in that life-style started with my generation - don't kid yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, pay is part of compensation. If you believe that American workers are held down and immobile despite the overwhelming evidence that indicates the opposite .
    The argument has been waged many times on this forum and always with the same result. On average I'm stick in my parents economic class just as my kids are stuck in my economic class. Now, if you want to quibble about degrees of poverty be my guest.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Or my current level of education. I took the job in order to get the skills, the experience, and the education, and now thanks to it I can move upwards and onwards to a new position where I will get new skills and experience and education and move onwards and upwards from there. Just like most Americans.
    Including me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Strictly off of education, yes. But not to the same degree, no.
    There may be minor modifications to compensation based off experience - if and only if experience is applicable to the job. An "experienced" burger flipper isn't going to get much extra compensation compared to the rookie even he spends his entire life flipping burgers.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    We are making my point. Americans improve themselves and thus climb the ladder as they age, indicating that in fact a mobile workforce is full of people who are constantly improving themselves and their position, meaning that labor does, in fact, have negotiating power with employers.

    Unless you manage to get into the top 2% of the workforce (or are part of a union) you have no negotiating power. One has only to look at the compensation of most American engineers and doctors to see that - and those jobs actually DO have some minute level of real demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is what I showed you, Mo. Do you have difficulty reading charts? As People Age, Their Pay Increases. Social Security, for example, figures that the average American get's an average of a 2% raise every year, annualized.
    Your chart doesn't show pay, it shows income. As I've pointed out for the third time, now, your chart is useless for any evidence of increased pay.
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  8. #738
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, my current employer has 24. One potential future employer has 15, with about 10 subsets for increased pay within each of those 15. That's probably rather higher than average - but the point remains that since people are continually moving up the ladder, the idea that each job change means a job creation is ignorant.
    You must have a pretty broad definition of "field". In general engineers have four, maybe five if you count the first step of management. I suspect doctors are the same but they may have fewer since they're more specialized.
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  9. #739
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ..
    I suspect part of our impasse is in definition. "Experience" to me means time in the same or similar job. It has nothing to do with learning skills beyond those needed for the job at hand. That's education, not experience. As I noted before, a fifty year old, life-long janitor makes the same as a twenty year old janitor that's been on the job a couple of years. Once you've picked up all the skills needed for a job, pay increases pretty much stop - except for the often insufficient increases to compensate for inflation. I have no doubt that more education leads to different jobs with more responsibility and the subsequent increase in compensation for assuming those responsibilities.

    Your whole argument seems to rest on the idea that people will increase their education, which is not always the case. Many have never been taught how to learn so virtually everything they do is by rote. It's a sad fact of life that half the workforce has an IQ below 100. For those that can't (and the few that won't) learn, they are stuck - or rather WE are stuck since society pays for it's own ignorance in ignoring the problem for so many decades. Keep spending less on education and trying to relieve poverty and things will only get worse. It's much more difficult to learn if you're already doing all you can just to feed your family.

    I agree the Welfare State sucks, but I can also see from decades of keeping my eyes open that we have done little to resolve the problems that create poverty, lack of education and little concern - even disdain - for the poor. Every grimace of disgust and every upturned nose only increase our costs down the road. That kind of negative reinforcement only makes the problem worse.
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  10. #740
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Everyone works for a living, no matter what you and your ilk seem to think. See, the burger flippers and the janitors are supposed to be the unskilled, the young, the kids in high school who are doing it for money on the side, whose majority expenses are covered by their parents. They work while they are going to school and they learn a work ethic. By the time they turn 18 and graduate from high school, they can either go to college, or move up the corporate ladder into management and open up another spot beneath them for another young worker.
    20% of the jobs pay less that $10 an hour. Show me that 20% of the workforce is under 21 and we can agree. I won't hold my breath but I'll admit I haven't researched it lately so you may be right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You seem to think that people who are stupid or lazy or don't want to work ought to get the same benefits as everyone who does. No, they don't deserve them, they haven't EARNED them!
    As I've just pointed out to cp - half the workforce IS "stupid" with an IQ of <100. You can't take your own experience and those in your personal little social group as an indication of the world as a whole.


    For those that actually ARE "lazy" or "don't want to work" - and I know a few of those - that's the path they've been put on and I have no reason to believe any amount of help will change them, now. Maybe when they were younger but not now.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-02-13 at 05:02 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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