View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #721
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I don't want to bring the system down - but that doesn't mean it's perfect and can't use some improvement. Our latest Crash should be evidence enough of that.
    Lots of people do want to reduce the system to the lowest common denominator, want to make minimum wage a living wage, want to be able to raise a family on a ditch-digger's salary, want to afford smartphones while working as a door greeter at Walmart, etc. There is no expectation that you need to work your way up and earn a good living, you should just be handed it on day one.

    That's just stupid.
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  2. #722
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Lots of people do want to reduce the system to the lowest common denominator,
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    want to make minimum wage a living wage,
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    want to be able to raise a family on a ditch-digger's salary,
    Yes, but certainly not in luxury

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    want to afford smartphones
    not just no but hell no! They still need a cheap phone, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    while working as a door greeter at Walmart, etc. There is no expectation that you need to work your way up and earn a good living, you should just be handed it on day one.

    That's just stupid.
    You should not be handed a "good living" at all, but we - as a society - should provide enough to live poorly yet safely and quit insisting that "everyone can be rich if they work hard enough". What nonsense! Certainly wealth can come from any social class (always easier the higher up you start, though) but that doesn't mean we're all going to get rich even if we study and work our asses off for 50 years. If everyone managed a college degree or a good 2-year trade school we'd still need janitors and burger flippers for society to function. That isn't going to change anytime soon and making those people into pariahs and insisting they must keep up with the Jones's doesn't do a damn thing except lead to discontent because not everyone has the ability to become rich or keep up with the Jones's.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-27-13 at 08:18 PM.
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  3. #723
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Except that mostly people don't do that. If you would ever both to read the article I continually cite you, you will note that most of them are leaving for higher paying positions. The vast majority of Americans, as we grow, add skills and experience that allow us to move up the ladder; either with our current employers, or by seeking new ones.
    If you move up the ladder then it's a different job, not the same one. You continue to misunderstand my position.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    your flat refusal to accept basic statistical reality further indicates that reason is not driving your response, but rather emotion.
    No, you made direct reference to my "unabl(ity) to self-improve to the point where you are able to command superior levels of compensation.", which not only assumes I didn't self-improve but also assumes I didn't command superior levels of compensation - by which I assume you mean more pay. Obviously your response was emotional because you know nothing about my life for a fact and even the facts I have revealed aren't enough for you to conclude any of the above without your own emotional response getting in the way of reason. In other words, labeling my responses as emotional is the pot calling the kettle black.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Which is a distinction without a difference. Not least because the largest portion of compensation (and the most rapidly rising one) over the past couple of decades has been healthcare, which gets more expensive the more you age. If those shifts in wages were reflecting a constant total compensation package then young people would be getting paid more than old people, not the other way around.

    Had, for example, compensation remained largely constant across age groups, while the mixture shifted between wage and benefits, you would see a decrease in the relative wage income of older workers, as healthcare costs have increased at an above-inflationary rate for the past 30 or so years. However, you will notice that when we look to see if that is the case, what we notice is that in fact the exact opposite has occurred:

    http://www.advisorperspectives.com/d...eal-growth.gif

    So, in fact, when we shift from simple "income" to "compensation" the data is even more in my favor.
    You have obviously never looked at how employers pay for group health insurance, though it's possible there have been radical changes in the last four years since my semi-retirement.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because taking this job allowed me to get that superior education and job experience. Like most Americans, as I grow, I add skills and experience that make me worth more in the job-market.
    I see. So when you took your current job you didn't have these skills. Do you honestly believe without these additional skills you could "command superior levels of compensation"? My guess to your answer is "no". Keep making my point and we'll eventually get there.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is simply mathematically farcical. For the extreme example to demonstrate the rule, if you had a single organization with a single hierarchy that was a straight ladder and held 30 million positions, then only 1 person would have to retire and 1 new job would have to be created at the bottom for 30 million people to move up.

    Even within the false boundaries of the model you are arguing (see immediately above), you are confusing "jobs created" with "net jobs created". Even in the middle of the downturn the American economy was still a churn-and-burn of jobs created and destroyed. The relevant question is - which number is higher, and by how much. So, for example, when we say "In April of 2013 there were 174,000 jobs created", we don't mean that 174K jobs were created and everyone else just stuck tight. We mean that 2,300,000 periods of employment ceased, and 2,474,000 periods of employment began. A-B="Jobs Created".
    So you believe each field has eight levels of hierarchy? I supposed that's possible but it seems pretty top-heavy compared to reality. Instead of showing statistics on what people expect to do, why don't you show statistics on what people did last year and see if the two are even close?
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  4. #724
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    I have had two union jobs in the past (early 80's) but after seeing what each stood for I secured positions where my performance as an individual could be graded and rewarded.
    After looking at the poll, I noticed that Unionists on this forum are a higher proportion than unionism is in the general population. Currently unions have about 12% of the work force, and the numbers are going down. Automobile manufacturing is moving to non-closes shop states, Aircraft manufacturing is doing the same. Unions are the "elite" of the work force in that they make huge wages as compared to the lower wage workers; such that lower wage workers cannot afford to buy union made products. That is where the disparity of income hurts the normal worker; not the very high income of the rich.

    Don't blame the 1% for America's pay gap
    April 24, 2012: 5:00 AM ET
    Don't blame the 1% for America's pay gap - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blogTerm Sheet

    When someone blames the rich he over looks the things one can do to elevate their position in life and increase their own wealth.

  5. #725
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    When someone blames the rich he over looks the things one can do to elevate their position in life and increase their own wealth.
    Well that's just nonsense. If everyone had a college degree or two years in trade school we would still need burger flippers and janitors. Someone has to work for a living, we can't all be at the top.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #726
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Well that's just nonsense. If everyone had a college degree or two years in trade school we would still need burger flippers and janitors. Someone has to work for a living, we can't all be at the top.
    I agree with that. There will always be burger flippers. The article if you read it talked about people who could should. Though it helps, one does not need a college degree, like you said a good trade school will do wonders.

    As you probably already know, the workers who settle for minimum wage tend to young people or people who are unable to improve him/herself. A very great man once said, the poor will always be with us, and while I believe we should help those who can't help themselves, blaming the 1% is about as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on a boar hog.

    You are also probably aware, that without the rich, there would be less investment, fewer jobs and the overall prosperity of the US would not be as good.

  7. #727
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    I agree with that. There will always be burger flippers. The article if you read it talked about people who could should. Though it helps, one does not need a college degree, like you said a good trade school will do wonders.

    As you probably already know, the workers who settle for minimum wage tend to young people or people who are unable to improve him/herself. A very great man once said, the poor will always be with us, and while I believe we should help those who can't help themselves, blaming the 1% is about as useful as the proverbial mammary glands on a boar hog.
    I didn't realize I was "blaming" the 1%. If that's the way I've come across then I apologize. I have no problem with the 1% being the 1% as long as they've earned that privilege.


    Quote Originally Posted by dnsmith View Post
    You are also probably aware, that without the rich, there would be less investment, fewer jobs and the overall prosperity of the US would not be as good.
    I disagree. There are other ways wealth can be managed as a block besides individual wealth. Mutual funds are a prime example.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I didn't realize I was "blaming" the 1%. If that's the way I've come across then I apologize. I have no problem with the 1% being the 1% as long as they've earned that privilege.


    I disagree. There are other ways wealth can be managed as a block besides individual wealth. Mutual funds are a prime example.
    When you come up with one of those ways please post it so we can all see it. As far as I am concerned, if there is no way for a person to become one of the 1% such that I could invest and help the prosperity of the whole society then what is the point?

  9. #729
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    DANG…it appears the current administration was covertly trying to destroy the unions too…not just the ‘right-wingers’…go figure???
    Labor unions enthusiastically backed the Obama administration’s health-care overhaul when it was up for debate. Now that the law is rolling out, some are turning sour.

    Union leaders say many of the law’s requirements will drive up the costs for their health-care plans and make unionized workers less competitive. Among other things, the law eliminates the caps on medical benefits and prescription drugs used as cost-containment measures in many health-care plans. It also allows children to stay on their parents’ plans until they turn 26.

    To offset that, the nation’s largest labor groups want their lower-paid members to be able to get federal insurance subsidies while remaining on their plans. In the law, these subsidies were designed only for low-income workers without employer coverage as a way to help them buy private insurance.

    In early talks, the Obama administration dismissed the idea of applying the subsidies to people in union-sponsored plans, according to officials from the trade group, the National Coordinating Committee for Multiemployer Plans, that represents these insurance plans.

    …Top officers at the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, the AFL-CIO and other large labor groups plan to keep pressing the Obama administration to expand the federal subsidies, warning that unionized employers may otherwise drop coverage…

    …A handful of unions say they already have examined whether it makes sense to shift workers off their current plans and onto private coverage subsidized by the government. But dropping insurance altogether would undermine a central point of joining a union, labor leaders say

    …“We are going back to the administration to say that this is not acceptable,” said Ken Hall, general secretary-treasurer for the Teamsters…

    “I heard him say, ‘If you like your health plan, you can keep it,’” said John Wilhelm, chairman of Unite Here Health, the insurance plan for 260,000 union workers. “If I’m wrong, and the president does not intend to keep his word, I would have severe second thoughts about the law.”
    Some Unions Grow Wary of Health Law They Backed - WSJ.com

    OOPS!...
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

  10. #730
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You should not be handed a "good living" at all, but we - as a society - should provide enough to live poorly yet safely and quit insisting that "everyone can be rich if they work hard enough". What nonsense! Certainly wealth can come from any social class (always easier the higher up you start, though) but that doesn't mean we're all going to get rich even if we study and work our asses off for 50 years. If everyone managed a college degree or a good 2-year trade school we'd still need janitors and burger flippers for society to function. That isn't going to change anytime soon and making those people into pariahs and insisting they must keep up with the Jones's doesn't do a damn thing except lead to discontent because not everyone has the ability to become rich or keep up with the Jones's.
    Sorry, low-wage jobs are the perview of the young and uneducated, who have few expenses and need to acquire work experience so they can advance beyond that level. They are not something that a person ought to ever expect they can live on by themselves and certainly not something they can raise a family on. That's just not what low-wage jobs are meant to do!
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