View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #711
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I think it's perfectly fine the way it is, people need to accept their place in the world and if they don't like where they are, improve their place, don't try to change the whole system. The American way of life is based on bettering yourself, not on bringing the whole system down to your level.
    I think that used to be pretty much the case, but many people seem to think we should all be equally miserable nowadays.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  2. #712
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I think it's perfectly fine the way it is, people need to accept their place in the world and if they don't like where they are, improve their place, don't try to change the whole system. The American way of life is based on bettering yourself, not on bringing the whole system down to your level.
    I don't want to bring the system down - but that doesn't mean it's perfect and can't use some improvement. Our latest Crash should be evidence enough of that.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  3. #713
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I think that used to be pretty much the case, but many people seem to think we should all be equally miserable nowadays.
    No, the problem nowadays is the poor are constantly being hammered with "you should be better than you are" instead of society simply accepting that some people are already as good as they're going to get - and could be quite happy about it if others would quit condemning their choices. (Not talking about you, there. I don't think you're that way - though I could be wrong.)

    I grew up lower middle-class but went to HS with what would be millionaire's kids, today. They never looked down their nose at me because I was poor. It doesn't work that way, anymore. Now it's a shame to be poor - unless, of course, everyone around you is also poor.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-27-13 at 01:17 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  4. #714
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And I pointed out that that many new jobs will not be created and/or vacated, which just goes to show our expectations of reality seldom intersect it. But, hey, everyone needs hope. If 30,000,000 people think they can find a better job next year, more power to them We'll ignore the simple fact that 30,000,000 new jobs (incl. retirements) will not happen. Moving from burger flipper I at McD's to burger flipper I at BK really isn't a step up.
    Well that may or may not be true. But, since we know that:

    A) the US workforce is highly mobile, with people often holding 8 or more positions over the course of their working lives and
    B) the older workers earn significantly more than the younger workers, it would seem that _
    C) your depiction of their job-hopping is inaccurate, and their picture of their job-hopping is correct.

    I'm sorry if you apparently are unable to self-improve to the point where you are able to command superior levels of compensation. But you need to understand that that is not the general American experience.

    See, if you were correct, then this chart here?



    wouldn't look like that, as there would be no major discernable differences.


    If you conned someone into paying you twice as much for doing the same job then Congrats!
    No Con needed.

    My bet is, it's not the same job
    actually, it is . But my new employers will be compensating me for my superior education and abilities, whereas my current one does not. So, when this contract runs out.... I'm gone.

    And I wonder where the guy that used to fill this new position went?
    it may be a new position altogether, or that guy apparently moved on and up himself.

  5. #715
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I was one of them, years ago. Then I moved up the chain of command. I have no respect for people who sit on their thumbs for their entire lives and never better themselves, which is what you seem to support. You seem to think that people deserve to get more because they're breathing, not because they've earned it.
    Who said anything about people sitting on their thumbs? What makes you think people who are in a union are NOT hard workers. I will tell you that this isn't true.

    What makes you put yourself so far above your fellow humans anyway? Why do you think you are so much "better" than anyone else?

    Perhaps you had opportunities that other people don't? Did you ever think about that? Not everyone has a "brain for business" you know. Some people will be laborers and construction workers or electricians and plumbers. Why should they make less? Are the jobs they do not valuable overall?

    I think you need to be knocked down off your high horse. Your posts are becoming QUITE arrogant.

  6. #716
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well that may or may not be true. But, since we know that:

    A) the US workforce is highly mobile, with people often holding 8 or more positions over the course of their working lives and
    B) the older workers earn significantly more than the younger workers, it would seem that _
    C) your depiction of their job-hopping is inaccurate, and their picture of their job-hopping is correct.
    I believe you've misinterpreted my picture of "job hopping" (and I suspect intentionally because you had no where to go the other way). You can hop all you want but if you're not getting a better deal the hop was worthless. 99% of the time if you're getting more pay it's because the job has changed (i.e., it has different/more requirements). Janitor I is Janitor I and, assuming there are no other qualifications, will pay the same just about everywhere. If Joe, a burger flipper I at McD's, trades jobs with Bill, a burger flipper I at BK, that isn't "changing jobs" to me. There's no "upward mobility" going on there - it's just a lateral move and usually occurs because of boredom or a personally clash or someone needing to move to another location. Regardless of the reason, it's still not a change of jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm sorry if you apparently are unable to self-improve to the point where you are able to command superior levels of compensation. But you need to understand that that is not the general American experience.
    I'm sorry you feel only poor, lost souls who can't do well on their own can have my beliefs. Once again you've shown yourself to be quite wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    See, if you were correct, then this chart here?

    http://www.advisorperspectives.com/d...edian-real.gif

    wouldn't look like that, as there would be no major discernable differences.
    Your chart is as irrelevant now as it was two pages ago. This shows income, not pay from job compensation.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No Con needed.

    actually, it is. But my new employers will be compensating me for my superior education and abilities, whereas my current one does not. So, when this contract runs out.... I'm gone.
    And why would God's gift to employers take such a lower paying job (essentially half pay IIRC) when he has the "superior education and abilities" you claim to have?


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it may be a new position altogether, or that guy apparently moved on and up himself.
    If he moved on and up then someone else somewhere along the food chain has retired, died, etc. Job openings can only be created from new jobs in the marketplace or retirements from the workforce. But, hey, if you're saying Obama's economic policies will create 30,000,000 new jobs and/or allow 30,000,000 to retire then I'm good with that admission.




    You already presented all this and I already addressed it - including your personal horn blowing - about two pages ago, depending on how you display pages. You 'seem' to have missed it but I'm more willing to bet you simply had no counter and ignored it as you do anything else that doesn't move your position forward.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-27-13 at 11:12 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #717
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Europe took your approach - how's that working out for them???
    On the contrary. Europe tried the "Balanced Approach" of imaginary spending cuts an very real tax increases. Answer, so far, not well.

  8. #718
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary. Europe tried the "Balanced Approach" of imaginary spending cuts an very real tax increases. Answer, so far, not well.
    So spending more and taxing less - the exact opposite of Europe - was the correct course!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #719
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I believe you've misinterpreted my picture of "job hopping" (and I suspect intentionally because you had no where to go the other way). You can hop all you want but if you're not getting a better deal the hop was worthless. 99% of the time if you're getting more pay it's because the job has changed (i.e., it has different/more requirements). Janitor I is Janitor I and, assuming there are no other qualifications, will pay the same just about everywhere. If Joe, a burger flipper I at McD's, trades jobs with Bill, a burger flipper I at BK, that isn't "changing jobs" to me. There's no "upward mobility" going on there - it's just a lateral move and usually occurs because of boredom or a personally clash or someone needing to move to another location. Regardless of the reason, it's still not a change of jobs.
    Except that mostly people don't do that. If you would ever both to read the article I continually cite you, you will note that most of them are leaving for higher paying positions. The vast majority of Americans, as we grow, add skills and experience that allow us to move up the ladder; either with our current employers, or by seeking new ones.

    I'm sorry you feel only poor, lost souls who can't do well on their own can have my beliefs.
    your flat refusal to accept basic statistical reality further indicates that reason is not driving your response, but rather emotion.

    Your chart is as irrelevant now as it was two pages ago. This shows income, not pay from job compensation.
    Which is a distinction without a difference. Not least because the largest portion of compensation (and the most rapidly rising one) over the past couple of decades has been healthcare, which gets more expensive the more you age. If those shifts in wages were reflecting a constant total compensation package then young people would be getting paid more than old people, not the other way around.

    Had, for example, compensation remained largely constant across age groups, while the mixture shifted between wage and benefits, you would see a decrease in the relative wage income of older workers, as healthcare costs have increased at an above-inflationary rate for the past 30 or so years. However, you will notice that when we look to see if that is the case, what we notice is that in fact the exact opposite has occurred:



    So, in fact, when we shift from simple "income" to "compensation" the data is even more in my favor.

    And why would God's gift to employers take such a lower paying job (essentially half pay IIRC) when he has the "superior education and abilities" you claim to have?
    Because taking this job allowed me to get that superior education and job experience. Like most Americans, as I grow, I add skills and experience that make me worth more in the job-market.

    If he moved on and up then someone else somewhere along the food chain has retired, died, etc. Job openings can only be created from new jobs in the marketplace or retirements from the workforce.
    That is simply mathematically farcical. For the extreme example to demonstrate the rule, if you had a single organization with a single hierarchy that was a straight ladder and held 30 million positions, then only 1 person would have to retire and 1 new job would have to be created at the bottom for 30 million people to move up.

    But, hey, if you're saying Obama's economic policies will create 30,000,000 new jobs and/or allow 30,000,000 to retire then I'm good with that admission.
    Even within the false boundaries of the model you are arguing (see immediately above), you are confusing "jobs created" with "net jobs created". Even in the middle of the downturn the American economy was still a churn-and-burn of jobs created and destroyed. The relevant question is - which number is higher, and by how much. So, for example, when we say "In April of 2013 there were 174,000 jobs created", we don't mean that 174K jobs were created and everyone else just stuck tight. We mean that 2,300,000 periods of employment ceased, and 2,474,000 periods of employment began. A-B="Jobs Created".

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    So spending more and taxing less - the exact opposite of Europe - was the correct course!
    Well, no. If the correct direction to go in is North, and your buddy fails by going West, the solution is not East.

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