View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #611
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman
    Anyone with any life experience knows that companies are closing and the unions are part of the problem.
    I guess my 50+ years doesn't qualify as "life experience" then.
    Was it during this fifty years?




    ....cause.... this rough half-century (well, 62 years) seems to rather credit his thesis. If unions were succesfull models of organization, we would see them expanding as they beat out the competition.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    "you dated a guy" Post whatever you want I realize now how much your argument has been about nothing
    You've been using nothing BUT anecdotal evidence, and unlike you I have provided links to data. I figured it was okay for me to use an anecdotal story since it seems to be the only evidence that you've been using.

  3. #613
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Sucks to be you.


    And I bet MY Mopar is bigger than your Mopar!


    I have a 69 Super Bee w/440 and an 09 Challenger SRT8........you?

  4. #614
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Was it during this fifty years?




    ....cause.... this rough half-century (well, 62 years) seems to rather credit his thesis. If unions were succesfull models of organization, we would see them expanding as they beat out the competition.
    That doesn't address the quesiton of "workers being part of the problem".

    This is just another ill-thought post that peaches instead of discusses.
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  5. #615
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That doesn't address the quesiton of "workers being part of the problem".

    This is just another ill-thought post that peaches instead of discusses.
    Workers aren't part of the problem. Unions are part of the problem. They reduce growth, kill off businesses, and decrease employment. That's why that graph is one long slide downwards - inefficient means of organization being outcompeted by superior models.

  6. #616
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No, I am applying economics to labor. You seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp this basic concept - labor obeys the laws of supply and demand.
    People are NOT commodities that can be parked in a warehouse nor idled like a piece of machinery when the market lags in demand. People are a constant and changes in the "production" of people take decades, not months.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Really? Here I thought we had a thing called "Unemployment".
    It's called Public Assistance (aka Welfare) when it continues past 6 months - or when the Republicans can be pushed into accepting a longer time-frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You seem to be confusing "what we want to have happen" with "what really happens". Just because labor is the thing that most of us sell doesn't mean that there will magically be infinite demand for it at the prices we would prefer.
    Then we as a people are destined to paying welfare for the long-term unemployed OR shipping people out of the country OR letting them die in the streets. Of course, "the People", at least the majority of them, have absolutely no control over the labor market so - as usual - we as a People are subject to the whims of business. In other words, if business doesn't pay. the People end up paying in the form of taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct - we have a social welfare system. In no way whatsoever does that invalidate the basic point that A) labor obeys the laws of supply and demand and B) workers have the ability to seek better compensation.
    A) Only from a business perspective does labor obey supply/demand. From a societal standpoint it can't - unless you're willing to let people die from poverty.
    B) Workers almost always have the option to seek better compensation, the question is How many workers will actually get better compensation? There are only a given number of "high-paying" jobs available, so not all the people making minimum wage today will be making $50/hr tomorrow regardless of how qualified they are, how many sacrifices they're willing to make, or how hard they work to get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Wrong. What happens is that the supply of available labor is increased which means that it's price drops, which means that demand (at the lower price) is higher.

    At least, this is what happens until someone (and by someone I mean "government") decides to jack with that process by putting price controls on labor.
    People can't live on $3/hr. regardless of how much you or the business community would like them to. When the $$$/hr of labor falls below a certain point society, not business, starts paying to keep those people idled or underpaid - again, unless you're willing to let people die from poverty.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Saw this today and thought it rather apropos for this discussion:

    Huh. Looks like American workers think that your theory of labor immobility and an inevitable race to the bottom is crap.
    The race to the bottom has already happened with the Crash of 2008. PhD's now working as hotel clerks, hotel clerks now working as janitors, and janitors now living off the tax-payers. And they never hit bottom because of "government interference", as you call it. Since there is simply no consumer demand to drive the economy (except it's slow acceleration after slamming on the brakes of a freight train!) it wouldn't matter if people were getting paid $3/hr - there still wouldn't be any jobs. Not only that, the people that had those $3/hr jobs wouldn't be buying anything but bad food and more cardboard for their "house".



    Here you are just preaching, again, instead of discussing. It's fine for the business community to treat people like commodities but as a society we cannot do that - unless you're willing to let people die from poverty. If you're not willing to do that, then either the business community or the tax payers are going to pay for idled and underpaid workers. You may as well call public assistance and unemployment insurance by their real name - corporate welfare: society paying for idled workers so businesses can continue making a short-term profit at the expense of the future, both of business and society.

    The Bottom Line of this discussion is simple - idle workers still need money to live. If the tax-payers foot the bill then less money is spent on goods and services. If business foots the bill then goods and services cost more. However, with the present system, businesses have no incentive to keep people on the payroll - in fact, they're often celebrated on Wall St when they lay people off, making those idled people a burden on the tax-payer instead of on business. Corporate welfare at it's finest.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  7. #617
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Workers aren't part of the problem. Unions are part of the problem. They reduce growth, kill off businesses, and decrease employment. That's why that graph is one long slide downwards - inefficient means of organization being outcompeted by superior models.
    Yeah - we'll just forget $0.50/hr jobs in China and decreases in the cost of shipping.

    We can rule out EPA guidelines to assure the health of the populace - I'm sure THAT has nothing to do with it. I'm know you would have lived downwind of a steel plant had you been alive in 1960.


    You're so fixated on your hatred for unions that you can't see the other things that have happened in the last 50+ years that also affected the American economy. Since you didn't live it I suggest you do some reading.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-21-13 at 09:58 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #618
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Yeah - we'll just forget $0.50/hr jobs in China and decreases in the cost of shipping.

    We can rule out EPA guidelines to assure the health of the populace - I'm sure THAT has nothing to do with it. I'm know you would have lived downwind of a steel plant had you been alive in 1960.


    You're so fixated on your hatred for unions that you can't see the other things that have happened in the last 50+ years that also affected the American economy. Since you didn't live it I suggest you do some reading.
    Unions also ensure the safety of the worker. That is NOT the case with nonunion construction companies. Union job sites have OSHA visiting on a routine basis.

  9. #619
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Was it during this fifty years?




    ....cause.... this rough half-century (well, 62 years) seems to rather credit his thesis. If unions were succesfull models of organization, we would see them expanding as they beat out the competition.
    You mean like this?

    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #620
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Unions also ensure the safety of the worker. That is NOT the case with nonunion construction companies. Union job sites have OSHA visiting on a routine basis.
    Thank you! I did forget to mention OSHA started up during that time as well. *thumbsup*
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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