View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #171
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I don't know. Common sense seems to be as dead as Lincoln in DC.

    International trade is supposed to be a net BENEFIT to your nation, not a way of crushing half the population into abject poverty... a little protectionism wouldn't be a bad idea.
    I have said it a dozen times--US trade policy is based almost exclusively on the ability to peddle US cars overseas. Everything is always couched in terms of auto/GM exports if you pay close attention to it.

  2. #172
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, it would be. Specifically, it would be a bad idea for those who have the lowest incomes, and are thus least capable of absorbing an increase in the cost of living.
    If it was carefully structured to protect the JOBS of working-poor Americans, it wouldn't.

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  3. #173
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If it was carefully structured to protect the JOBS of working-poor Americans, it wouldn't.
    Except that doing so is impossible. When you increase the cost of a good or service through protectionism you help (in the short term - in the long term everyone is harmed as growth and innovation are stunted) the 1% of the people who are involved in that industry - and not necessarily monetarily. Protected industries don't have to increase wages if labor is plentiful. Meanwhile you harm the 99% of the people who consume the product. In the meantime, you have also harmed the much poorer people from abroad who used to trade with you. Freeing trade has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in the last couple of decades. As Christians, we are obliged to care about all men as ourselves, not seek to screw over the truly poor to benefit "American workers".

    Generally, however, the industries capable of winning government protection are those who are already well-heeled enough to purchase political influence. The younger, poorer businesses aren't able to buy a Senator or three, and so their membership is left in a world where the cost of living is increasing, but their income is remaining stagnant (or falling due to decreased economic growth).

    Trade wars are wars that governments wage against their own people for the benefit of well-connected interests.


    But hey. I see your sig - you don't gotta take it from me.

    Last edited by cpwill; 12-30-12 at 02:48 AM.

  4. #174
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yeah. It's amazing what you can do when the rest of the industrialized world has been bombed to rubble, and you are the only manufacturer with a populace that hasn't been starved to death/shot at/burned out of their homes/watched their cities and factories turn into ash.

    However, you may be interested to learn that you are also a bit off. Union membership peaked in 1945: the expansionary years of the mid 50's through the 1960's were taking place in the beginning of a long union decline. A decline that, not coincidentally, corresponded with the reintroduction of competition from abroad as other nations rebuilt their industrial bases. Incidentally, the growth from the 50's and 60's mostly was considered such a golden era because it contrasted with the previous era, which was marked by the growth of unions and the resulting depression that they helped to prolong.
    Now you're just being silly. Union membership may have peaked in 1945 but unions were at the zenith of their power and influence over the next 30 years.

    We can both cherry pick our favorite theory for the Great Depression. Methinks it had a lot more to do with monetary contraction than artificially inflated wages. This could make for a very interesting debate in itself. Unfortunately, I do not have the time for it presently.

    Ah. This is the magical theory of money, where the price of consumer goods do not include labor cost, and companies just get money from magic money trees.

    In realityland, unfortunately, when you artificially increase the price of labor above it's market (supply/demand) value, you increase the price of the good or service being produced without increasing its' quality, meaning that the company that is doing the producing is going to be destroyed by the competition. Just as has happened to the US Auto Industry.
    We both know that competing companies are compelled to engage in a race to the bottom in regards to labor costs. Yes, lower labor costs translates into lower production costs which translates into lower market prices. Of course, chattel slavery, serfdom, indentured servitude, and subsistence wages will yield the lowest labor costs and thus the lowest market prices. So much for your supply/demand curve in regards to real world human morality, real world social stability, and real world politics. We have been through all of this already. Your way doesn't work. You can argue that management and labor unions need to be more cognizant of their symbiotic relationship. However, you cannot argue that collective bargaining is not necessary. It is very necessary. History attests to the fact.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Complain all you want, it doesn't alter the fact that when you raise a price for something (like labor), you lower demand.



    I love how the Unions utilize coercion, but it's managements' fault if they let them get away with it
    I do not mean to be disrespectful but you have no idea of what you are talking about labor is one part of product cost you forgot about quality and worker productivity. Again the UAW is not responsible for poor management decisions nor are they responsible for product quality or marketing . Foreign auto manufacturers kicked our butts they built a superior product to what was being built in America, better gas mileage, a more advanced better looking and more reliable automobile.

    I was in management for 28 years IMO the majority of management could not get a thirsty horse to drink water, they have poor people skills and their marketing skills are worst then their people skills.

    I am not nor was I ever a member of the UAW nor did i work in the auto industry

  6. #176
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    I've been in a union in the distant past, would never join one now, they are a scam. That's why union membership has been falling for decades. Can't wait until they're gone.
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  7. #177
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I've been in a union in the distant past, would never join one now, they are a scam.
    You think unions like the one you were in in the PAST are scams or do you now as a non union worker think unions are a scam now? What do you base your opinion on?

    That's why union membership has been falling for decades. Can't wait until they're gone.
    Union membership is dropping off because of right to work laws, because of a lack of work, because some conservatives think that we should not be spending money on infrastructure. The only road block that the far right faces are the unions and they are working hard to eliminate organized labor

  8. #178
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    You think unions like the one you were in in the PAST are scams or do you now as a non union worker think unions are a scam now? What do you base your opinion on?
    I thought they were scams then, I think they are scams now. I've both been in a union and been in management over a union and they absolutely are scams. There are plenty of stories of how, simply due to union contracts, unnecessary labor just stands around doing nothing because at one time, before automation, there was a need for those people but now, they not only don't have to move on to other jobs, they can't be let go.

    Scam, scam, scam.

    Union membership is dropping off because of right to work laws, because of a lack of work, because some conservatives think that we should not be spending money on infrastructure. The only road block that the far right faces are the unions and they are working hard to eliminate organized labor
    It's dropping off because it's largely unnecessary. Most of the things that unions were first created to do are now part of law. Workplaces are much safer, labor laws are codified, there's no real reason for unions except for the greedy. That's why office workers at the port of Los Angeles are going to be making almost $200k per year, because they could stop all the work at the ports until they got their way.
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  9. #179
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I thought they were scams then, I think they are scams now. I've both been in a union and been in management over a union and they absolutely are scams.
    Typical management whine you fail to be able to motivate your work force and blame it on the worker

    There are plenty of stories of how, simply due to union contracts, unnecessary labor just stands around doing nothing because at one time, before automation,there was a need for those people
    So before automation they where needed and it was not a scam is that what you are saying?

    they not only don't have to move on to other jobs, they can't be let go.

    Scam, scam, scam.
    So management negotiated a contract that allows workers to stand around and you place the blame on the worker?


    It's dropping off because it's largely unnecessary. Most of the things that unions were first created to do are now part of law. Workplaces are much safer, labor laws are codified, there's no real reason for unions except for the greedy. That's why office workers at the port of Los Angeles are going to be making almost $200k per year, because they could stop all the work at the ports until they got their way.
    So again you are blaming the workers for a contract that management agreed to? If I paid someone 200k a year they would have to be earning it. Do you sit in on contract negotiations?

  10. #180
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Because these days employers don't seem to respect merit, mostly.... just the bottom line and nothing else.
    Contributing to the bottom line equals merit.

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