View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #141
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Maybe in fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, particularly for the average worker with the average skill set. Without collective bargaining, such workers will typically be paid little more than a subsistence since they are easily replaced.
    Maybe in liberal fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, as employees who engage in collective bargaining kill the businesses they work at, and employers who do not pay employees what they are worth lose out to competition who does.

    Labor is purchased just like any other good or service.

    And what if you lacked the cerebral aptitude to obtain a masters degree?
    Then I would have done what I also did, which was agree to sign up for 4 more years of service in order to be trained in a different career field, one with civilian applications.

    What is to become of the infantrymen who are less gifted; should they be doomed to a life of exploitation and meager subsistence? How are they to leverage a decent wage, and do you even give a damn?
    Actually you can make pretty good money in the non-cerebral fields. One of my buddies who got out realized that his current skill set sucked, so instead of sitting around and threatening his employer, he went and improved himself by getting trained as a plumber. Not a lot of 25 year olds with no college education can pull in $50K+. Another took some college and became an HVAC guru, and I understand is doing pretty well for himself. Another was willing to pony up the time and effort to get trained to go work on the oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico, which pay pretty dang well. All these guys faced a world in which their skill set was in low demand, and so they went and added new skill sets to allow their labor to charge a higher price in the market.

    If you think that being treated as a commodity, "according to the Supply/Demand curve," is a measure of self-worth or a pathway to self-empowerment then you are philosophically dyslexic. The world will NOT treat you as you determine. The world will treat you like a cog in the machine and throw you away at its convenience. If this is truly your philosophy, then my advice to you is to watch out, for you are sure to be broadsided by a terribly painful realization someday, especially if you are not self-employed.
    Doubtful. Because I take ownership of my own circumstances, I am willing to be proactive in insuring them, rather than resentful and coercive in forcing others to subsidize them. That is what you seem to be missing, here - there is a difference of type between our worth as individuals and the economic value of our labor at any given point in time, and recognizing that and taking ownership of yourself is a key ingredient to the free life. No, a union member is a cog in the machine - they think that their value is only found in the machine - no one threatens to go on strike all by their lonesome. Like a slave they (and you) think that they are helpless victims of their circumstances. A free man thinks his labor is worth something in and of itself, and that he has the ability to improve that value.

    I don't know what hippie commune you grew up on, but the quality of your "being in the world" is under discussion here, and this quality is wholly connected to your monetary compensation whether you realize it not.
    I would agree. The worth of the individual is wholly unconnected to the economic value of their labor.

    Organized labor assures a human minimum to the demand axis (as far as wages are concerned), because below that minimum lies exploitation and subsistence
    Sadly it does not, because the real "minimum wage" is zero. When you put in place an artificial floor on labor, you simply lower the demand for low-value labor, with a corresponding increased measure of difficulty for the poorest and most vulnerable among us. That, after all, is why we put minimum wage laws into effect in the first place.

  2. #142
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    And what if the pay at the new career is also an unfair pittance? What if you are working for a large company where the stockholders are being paid well, the executives are being paid well, but the workers are getting paid poorly?
    We have a saying here, you might consider it when playing these silly "if" games.

    If a cow sh*t butter, you wouldn't have to churn it. Performance driven people do not have to worry about these scenarios.

  3. #143
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    How many employees are we talking about?
    Is there ever going to be a point from you?

  4. #144
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    The post office is going broke because of email. I, like most people, buy stamps once a year for Christmas cards.



    Do you have any sort of evidence a union employee is any less productive than nonunion? I am a member of a professional union. My pay and benefits are better and I don't have to fight with my crazy boss, they handle it for me. Cattle huh?
    Yep cattle. Public unions are a drain on the taxpayers and private sector unions drive up costs creating another hurdle in a global market. Why are people afraid to work on their own merit?

  5. #145
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Just as soon as they organize.

    You seem to be forgetting that organized labor is actually good for the economy for it keeps the capital in circulation.
    On the contrary, organized labor is bad for the economy, as it reduces labor, aggregate standards of living, innovation and growth,
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-29-12 at 06:35 PM.

  6. #146
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    I belong to the IWW, joined in October.


  7. #147
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    The hostess employees working with a union would be included in the numbers. The Hostess employee no longer employed and no longer represented would not be included in the Union wage statistics. That is the nature of how numbers are gathered. Likewise, the person with the least individual merit is likely making more but the person with the most individual merit is likely making less because of pooling effect. As I pointed out in another post, the 20 year old working beside by brother will never make as much per hour as my brother because my brother benefits from the rigid union endorsed seniority system to the detriment of the guy beside him. When you take in consideration which businesses unions go after unionizing, you might want to consider they go after the cash cows which calls into question what the true intent of unions are as they themselves are businesses.
    You can include the Hostess employees if you want. It is still not going to change the fact that union workers have historically made considerably more in wages and benefits than non-union workers of the same job status.

    Seniority counts in unions, as does in elsewhere, as it should.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  8. #148
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    You can include the Hostess employees if you want. It is still not going to change the fact that union workers have historically made considerably more in wages and benefits than non-union workers of the same job status.

    Seniority counts in unions, as does in elsewhere, as it should.
    seniority in the same pay system is fair; having 2 totally separate pay and benefit systems for the same job is not so fair IMHO.

  9. #149
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, organized labor is bad for the economy, as it reduces labor, aggregate standards of living, innovation and growth,
    Nonsense. The biggest economic boom this country has ever experienced followed the rise of the labor unions. This was no mere coincidence.

    The more money the workers earn, the more money they can spend. Labor unions force companies to do what they are unable to do on their own initiative as they compete against other companies, namely, pay an adequate wage to their workers (who are also consumers). Thus it is a win-win situation for everyone, that is until one company decides to outsource its labor to some third-world ****hole where unions are unheard of and workers can be exploited for pennies on the dollar. Then the other companies are forced to follow suit in order to survive.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  10. #150
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    I've never had the opportunity to join a union. They are rare in SC.

    Sometimes I wish I could. They may be corrupt and over grasping, but dealing with an employer as a powerless individual sucks.

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