View Poll Results: How many here belong to a union?

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  • I have worked my whole career while in a union

    9 10.98%
  • I belong to one currently

    15 18.29%
  • I have never and would never join one

    34 41.46%
  • I used to be in one but not now

    24 29.27%
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Thread: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

  1. #131
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Not a clue off the top of my head, but that's not exactly pertinent to my statement. The poster I was responding to arbitrarily stated that union membership was in fact detrimental and no longer offered anything of value (presumably to consumers of said industry or the employees within.) A patently false statement, unless you make the assumption that all those who lobby for and ardently defend the right to unionize and remain so are simply masochists en masse.
    Actually this is not what I said at all. There is a difference between union membership and unions themselves. Union membership are those workers who are, either forced or voluntarily a part of a union. I rarely talk about those people. When I talk about unions I talk about the Union Bosses. The ones that make all the decisions...half the time without even consulting the people that they are suppose to be representing. They, like our politicians, are in thier positions more for the power and the money than to actually help the common worker.

    See I would rather Union Bosses start thinking of both the workers AND the company. And yes, the opposite is true also...the company should think of thier company AND the workers. But quite frankly right now in the US the mentality is "its them or us!". There is no middle ground and its all for one and one for oneself. When both sides start thinking more of the other side than of themselves then we will advance.
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  2. #132
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It would be interesting to see inside a German union.

    In the United States, it appears to me that union/company relations are completely adversarial. Nobody trusts anybody. The interests of the company, which should come first, in my opinion, don't even make a union's priority list, much less the top ten considerations. We see time and time again where a union's unrelenting demands result in a company's destruction. In whose best interest is that?

    I blame union management since if the employer is perceived as fair, the union's perceived value goes down.
    This is exactly the mentality in the US. /double like for you!
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  3. #133
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually this is not what I said at all. There is a difference between union membership and unions themselves

    Union membership are those workers who are, either forced or voluntarily a part of a union. I rarely talk about those people.

    When I talk about unions I talk about the Union Bosses. The ones that make all the decisions...half the time without even consulting the people that they are suppose to be representing.

    They, our politicians, are in thier positions more for the power and the money than to actually help the common worker.

    See I would rather Union Bosses start thinking of both the workers AND the company. And yes, the opposite is true also...the company should think of thier company AND the workers. But quite frankly right now in the US the mentality is "its them or us!". There is no middle ground and its all for one and one for oneself. When both sides start thinking more of the other side than of themselves then we will advance.
    Without the structure itself, the benefits simply wouldn't materialize. When one claims that unions yield no benefit, you're referring to membership as well by default.

    Sure, I know what the term membership entails.

    Who's to say? Arbitrary statements hold no weight whatsoever.

    Again, who's to say? Union workers earn a good deal more than their lone wolf counterparts, even in comparable fields and market shares.

    More opinion and observations. Not much to discuss in reality.

  4. #134
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If i have earned them then either my employer or his competition will seek to leverage me by offering them. The competitor which most closely mirrors worth with compensation will thus have a market advantage.
    Maybe in fantasyland. In the real world, it does not work that way, particularly for the average worker with the average skill set. Without collective bargaining, such workers will typically be paid little more than a subsistence since they are easily replaced.

    Then I would seek to change my position by either changing the quality or the nature of my work.

    For example, I was an infantryman. Infantrymen can basically go become firemen or cops, or some form of menial labor. I wanted a higher standard of living for my family, so I earned a masters degree while working full time and became an Analyst. Now my labor is worth much more.
    And what if you lacked the cerebral aptitude to obtain a masters degree? What is to become of the infantrymen who are less gifted; should they be doomed to a life of exploitation and meager subsistence? How are they to leverage a decent wage, and do you even give a damn?

    On the contrary - that is a statement of self-worth, of self-power, of individual responsibility. That is a statement that I have the ability to alter my conditions through application of my abilities, that is a statement that the world shall treat me primarily as I determine.
    If you think that being treated as a commodity, "according to the Supply/Demand curve," is a measure of self-worth or a pathway to self-empowerment then you are philosophically dyslexic. The world will NOT treat you as you determine. The world will treat you like a cog in the machine and throw you away at its convenience. If this is truly your philosophy, then my advice to you is to watch out, for you are sure to be broadsided by a terribly painful realization someday, especially if you are not self-employed.

    Yes, I am a human being. However, my worth as a human being is beyond monetary compensation. My labor is what is under discussion here, not my being.
    I don't know what hippie commune you grew up on, but the quality of your "being in the world" is under discussion here, and this quality is wholly connected to your monetary compensation whether you realize it not.


    Not at all. Labor exists on a supply/demand curve, just like everything else. That's why most new lawyers actually don't get paid that well, but engineers do - because we make a ton of lawyers in this economy, and not that many engineers.
    Organized labor assures a human minimum to the demand axis (as far as wages are concerned), because below that minimum lies exploitation and subsistence. This is why Walmart is so averse to their workers organizing. They would prefer that their workers remain mere object commodities on the free market.

    Most lawyers, while not commanding the salaries they did 40 years ago, are not condemned to a subsistence wage. However, should this ever happen, then you can expect them to organize for they most surely will.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  5. #135
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Which has resulted in lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.
    Just as soon as they organize.

    You seem to be forgetting that organized labor is actually good for the economy for it keeps the capital in circulation.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  6. #136
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    I'm not sure why you seem to have so much trouble believing that someone can be well informed about unions and still not want to belong to one.
    Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. Being organized is much more likely to obtain you a better wage and benefits then not being organized. It is foolish to reject unionization.

    And unions are not the only things keeping labor laws from being disregarded. There are plenty of places that aren't unionized, and that follow labor laws and safety regulations.
    Let me explain something to you: It is the existential threat that organized labor presents to the non-unionized company that, not only keeps labor laws from being disregarded, but procures a better wage for the non-union employee than he would ever obtain if there were no such thing as organized labor and extant labor unions.

    There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions, they aren't common.
    Yes, and as organized labor declines, so does regard for labor laws. How many illegal immigrants do we have working under the table for subsistence wages now, and the government turns a blind eye?
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  7. #137
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. Being organized is much more likely to obtain you a better wage and benefits then not being organized. It is foolish to reject unionization.



    Let me explain something to you: It is the existential threat that organized labor presents to the non-unionized company that, not only keeps labor laws from being disregarded, but procures a better wage for the non-union employee than he would ever obtain if there were no such thing as organized labor and extant labor unions.



    Yes, and as organized labor declines, so does regard for labor laws. How many illegal immigrants do we have working under the table for subsistence wages now, and the government turns a blind eye?
    Well, as for your first point, maybe, maybe not. The pooling effect of numbers may or may not reflect certain assumptions. As for your second point, unions claim that Walmart workers are exploited but simultaneously claim they are better off because of the threat of a union--which is it? Can't have both. As for your third point, what you consider subsistence wages are better than the $2.50 an hour they would get in Mexico making your flat-screen TV or else they wouldn't be here to begin with.

  8. #138
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post

    Well, as for your first point, maybe, maybe not.
    The overwhelming majority of the time you will obtain a better wage through collective bargaining than you will without it. Yes, this is a fact of labor history.

    The pooling effect of numbers may or may not reflect certain assumptions.
    It has certainly proved effective.

    As for your second point, unions claim that Walmart workers are exploited but simultaneously claim they are better off because of the threat of a union--which is it? Can't have both.
    Obviously, it is both. No doubt, Walmart employees have been getting paid slightly more than they would have if there were no such thing as unions. However, they have not been getting paid nearly as much as they would have had they been organized all along.

    As for your third point, what you consider subsistence wages are better than the $2.50 an hour they would get in Mexico making your flat-screen TV or else they wouldn't be here to begin with.
    No, it is not better. In both instances, people are not being paid a fair wage.
    It's like you're dreaming of Gorgonzola when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

  9. #139
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    The overwhelming majority of the time you will obtain a better wage through collective bargaining than you will without it. Yes, this is a fact of labor history.

    It has certainly proved effective.

    Obviously, it is both. No doubt, Walmart employees have been getting paid slightly more than they would have if there were no such thing as unions. However, they have not been getting paid nearly as much as they would have had they been organized all along.



    No, it is not better. In both instances, people are not being paid a fair wage.
    The hostess employees working with a union would be included in the numbers. The Hostess employee no longer employed and no longer represented would not be included in the Union wage statistics. That is the nature of how numbers are gathered. Likewise, the person with the least individual merit is likely making more but the person with the most individual merit is likely making less because of pooling effect. As I pointed out in another post, the 20 year old working beside by brother will never make as much per hour as my brother because my brother benefits from the rigid union endorsed seniority system to the detriment of the guy beside him. When you take in consideration which businesses unions go after unionizing, you might want to consider they go after the cash cows which calls into question what the true intent of unions are as they themselves are businesses.

  10. #140
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    Re: How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Without the structure itself, the benefits simply wouldn't materialize. When one claims that unions yield no benefit, you're referring to membership as well by default.
    No I don't refer to the membership as well. I think that I know what I refer to, you claiming that I refer to something else as well does not make it so. With your same logic here every time someone talks about republican politicians or democrat politicians then they are also refering to all of the people in the US as well, that just isn't so.

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Again, who's to say? Union workers earn a good deal more than their lone wolf counterparts, even in comparable fields and market shares.
    Yeah, union workers do earn more. But then again the states where unions are strongest (union states) also have a higher cost of living than those states where unions are not as strong (right to work states). So in the end it evens out. The difference between the two however is that in a union controlled state a buisness is more likely to fold in part due to the adversial nature of both unions and companies.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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