View Poll Results: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage?

Voters
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  • Because Iím gay/lesbian

    3 1.76%
  • Because itís an equal rights issue

    93 54.71%
  • Because gays/lesbians love each other too

    8 4.71%
  • Because I despise bigots/haters

    2 1.18%
  • Because I donít want to be labeled a bigot

    1 0.59%
  • Iím opposed to gay marriage

    14 8.24%
  • I donít care, either way

    17 10.00%
  • Other

    32 18.82%
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Thread: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

  1. #231
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    but it's not about equal rights....at least that's the excuse several supporters used when I asked about the same equal right for siblings and/or polygamists
    It's about eqaul rights as a legal term, not as the magical creation you create in your head to fuel this strawman argument of yours that means "everything must be treated exactly equal in every sense of the word".

    Equal Rights when speaking in a legal sense is the statement that a law must adhere to a consistent set of standards with regards to the Governments ability to apply a law in an unequal fashion towards a particular group.

    As has already clearly been explained to you before, at which point you basically ignored it and continued on with your strawman as I'm sure you'll do again this time.

  2. #232
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    1.) exactly, youll be waiting forever because the fact is it doesnt at all, equal rights will never effect YOUR own marriage.
    It doesn't change a persons marriage but it absolutely can affect the rest of society. If the government begins recognizing same-sex marriage, or specifically "gay marriage", then essentially this means that all forms of private enterprise that provide additional benefits, categories, services, etc for "married" couples will be forced under the law to acknowledge and accept those types of same sex or gay marriages in those instances OR remove those instances from their enterprise. It also creates an inherent cultural change within society in terms of the notion of what marriage is, impacting for example, the teachings ones child will recieve regarding the practice.

    Now you may say "Well, Too ****ing bad...Gay People deserve rights too and if those bigots don't like it, tough ****" and you're more than in your rights to say it...but it wouldn't change the fact that it would still be something tangably affecting them.

    Their own "marriage" being changed inherently is a silly argument, but suggesting it will have an effect on them in general or in terms of the notion of "marriage" is absolutely true.

  3. #233
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    It doesn't matter how many times you discussed it here, lol. You can discuss a billion times and that still won't make it any less wrong. If homosexuals actually had the right to marry, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. They would be good to go in all 50 states. As it stands, they aren't even close.
    The government denying people the ability to EXERCISE their rights does not mean those rights don't exist.

    The government of DC was denying people their 2nd amendment rights. That didn't mean those people didn't have those rights, it meant the government was denying it to them. As was deemed by the SCOTUS.

    When blacks were being treated as seperate but equal, they were being denied their rights. Just because they weren't being allowed to exercise those rights didn't mean they didn't inherently have them. Again, SCOTUS overruled unconstitutional law.

    That's part of the point of SCOTUS today...to rule when law is infringing upon peoples constitutional rights. Pointing to the fact that homosexual or same sex individuals can't currently exercise their rights is not proof of any sorts that the rights don't exist.

  4. #234
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Sexuality is not considered when determining rights in most states, this it is a non-factor. Legally speaking LGBT people have equal rights since in most states the definition is one man one woman. I don't think sexuality should be lumped in the same status as race, religion, and gender.
    I don't particularly believe it should be a Intermediate or Strict tier of scrutiny under the EPC either (as Race, religion and Gender are), but that doesn't mean it's not still covered by the lowest teir (and specifically, the sterner end of the lower tier) and even at that teir there's still a question as to whether the discrimination in question is rationally related to a legitimate state interest.

    Then again, that's why my issue with Marriage is based on the notion of Gender Inequality rather than Sexuality Inequality. Gender IS protected at a higher level of scrutiny and I've yet to have someone present to me an Important state interest that is being substantially served by disallowing same-sex marriage in my mind.

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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The government denying people the ability to EXERCISE their rights does not mean those rights don't exist.

    The government of DC was denying people their 2nd amendment rights. That didn't mean those people didn't have those rights, it meant the government was denying it to them. As was deemed by the SCOTUS.

    When blacks were being treated as seperate but equal, they were being denied their rights. Just because they weren't being allowed to exercise those rights didn't mean they didn't inherently have them. Again, SCOTUS overruled unconstitutional law.

    That's part of the point of SCOTUS today...to rule when law is infringing upon peoples constitutional rights. Pointing to the fact that homosexual or same sex individuals can't currently exercise their rights is not proof of any sorts that the rights don't exist.
    One must be careful when describing not being able to live "their way" as having their civil rights denied. You have no right to special treatment under the law based on your desire (preference?) to marry a same sex partner than to marry two opposite sex partners or to marry a brother or sister. Some rights are "presumed" to exist based on the 14th amendment, yet we accept the rights of the state to define their own marriage laws and voting ID laws. Equal protection, does not mean that all laws must treat all people as they wish (prefer?), simply that they are not intentionally discriminating against based on Constitutionally (legally?) defined traits (e.g. race, gender, religion and etc.); so far, "preference" has not been added to that list.

    For obvious reasons, the addition of personal "preference" as giving someone civil rights protection is a very tricky thing to do. Is a preference to have two spouses fundamentally different that to prefer having a same sex spouse? Is one's preference to smoke marijuana, buy/sell beer on Sunday or walk around nude reason to allow it as a civil right? Democracy (unfortunately?) allows the majority to establish its "preferences" so long as they do not violate express civil rights, not that they must allow any expressed minority's "preferences" to trump their elected representative's decisions simply by finding a like minded judge.
    ďThe reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.Ē ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #236
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    Not sure if a poll like this has already been posted, but these are questions that I've been mulling over for sometime. Would appreciate some honest input.
    So I'm curious. What are your thoughts on the honest input you've gotten so far?

    Are you glad you started the thread?

    What are your thoughts on the poll responses?

    Why did you start this thread? Were you hoping for more confirmation regarding your own thoughts and beliefs? Are you disappointed with the
    passionate responses and the number of responses in support of SSM?

    Did you expect something different in terms of the responses?

  7. #237
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    One must be careful when describing not being able to live "their way" as having their civil rights denied. You have no right to special treatment under the law based on your desire (preference?) to marry a same sex partner than to marry two opposite sex partners or to marry a brother or sister. Some rights are "presumed" to exist based on the 14th amendment, yet we accept the rights of the state to define their own marriage laws and voting ID laws. Equal protection, does not mean that all laws must treat all people as they wish (prefer?), simply that they are not intentionally discriminating against based on Constitutionally (legally?) defined traits (e.g. race, gender, religion and etc.); so far, "preference" has not been added to that list.

    For obvious reasons, the addition of personal "preference" as giving someone civil rights protection is a very tricky thing to do. Is a preference to have two spouses fundamentally different that to prefer having a same sex spouse? Is one's preference to smoke marijuana, buy/sell beer on Sunday or walk around nude reason to allow it as a civil right? Democracy (unfortunately?) allows the majority to establish its "preferences" so long as they do not violate express civil rights, not that they must allow any expressed minority's "preferences" to trump their elected representative's decisions simply by finding a like minded judge.
    After years and years of discussion on this issue, and people still makle the same mistakes. Incest and SSM are not the same thing. Trying to equate them is incredibly lame. Your legal arguments fail as well, but that is a separate issue(Sinbce marriage is a right, to deny marriage there has to be a certain level of reason. That is not there for SSM).
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It doesn't change a persons marriage but it absolutely can affect the rest of society. If the government begins recognizing same-sex marriage, or specifically "gay marriage", then essentially this means that all forms of private enterprise that provide additional benefits, categories, services, etc for "married" couples will be forced under the law to acknowledge and accept those types of same sex or gay marriages in those instances OR remove those instances from their enterprise. It also creates an inherent cultural change within society in terms of the notion of what marriage is, impacting for example, the teachings ones child will recieve regarding the practice.

    Now you may say "Well, Too ****ing bad...Gay People deserve rights too and if those bigots don't like it, tough ****" and you're more than in your rights to say it...but it wouldn't change the fact that it would still be something tangably affecting them.

    Their own "marriage" being changed inherently is a silly argument, but suggesting it will have an effect on them in general or in terms of the notion of "marriage" is absolutely true.
    First of all, don't worry about the kids. Kids are FAR FAR FAR more open to SSM than adults are.

    Second, I truly don't weep at all for people who stand to make more money and have increased business activity but struggle with their own moral issues over where the money comes from.
    They'll get over it. Business is about money, income and profit. There will be plenty of establishments that will gladly perform ceremonies, decorate cakes, provide flowers, print invitations, sell dresses and/or tuxedos, and provide space without questioning who's writing the check.

    Third, gay people are part of society regardless of marital status. They are police, fire and rescue, construction, small business owners, medical staff, postal employees, waiters, bar tenders, sports figures, ........... so society won't change at all by recognizing gay marriage other than perhaps a slight uptick in profits for some.

    I do like many of your other comments though.

  9. #239
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    After years and years of discussion on this issue, and people still makle the same mistakes. Incest and SSM are not the same thing. Trying to equate them is incredibly lame. Your legal arguments fail as well, but that is a separate issue(Sinbce marriage is a right, to deny marriage there has to be a certain level of reason. That is not there for SSM).
    Again, why is the SSM preference more important, or protected, than a preference to use a recreational drug, to not wear clothing, to buy/sell beer on Sunday or to ride a motorcycle without wearing a helmet? Denying those preferences does not serve any particular state interest, they are simply what was desired by the majority, thus they were made into law.
    ďThe reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.Ē ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #240
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    re: What is the primary reason behind your support for same-sex marriage? [W:539/549]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I don't particularly believe it should be a Intermediate or Strict tier of scrutiny under the EPC either (as Race, religion and Gender are), but that doesn't mean it's not still covered by the lowest teir (and specifically, the sterner end of the lower tier) and even at that teir there's still a question as to whether the discrimination in question is rationally related to a legitimate state interest.

    Then again, that's why my issue with Marriage is based on the notion of Gender Inequality rather than Sexuality Inequality. Gender IS protected at a higher level of scrutiny and I've yet to have someone present to me an Important state interest that is being substantially served by disallowing same-sex marriage in my mind.
    Marriage is largely societal thing that is recognized in law, I don't believe that by default homosexuals and other sexualities have the right to legally define marriage in context of society and the law without their approval. I would say it is within important state interest if when the issue is brought up to a vote that the majority of citizens of a state disprove of SSM (which is usually indirect since nearly all votes are to define marriage as one man one woman). Likewise, the reverse is also true. By default, the way the Constitution is written I do not believe that it demands that SSM be legal and that state interest must be argued to make it illegal. Not allowing SSM is not unlawful discrimination in my opinion.
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