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Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

  • Democrats

    Votes: 8 12.7%
  • Republicans

    Votes: 32 50.8%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    Votes: 23 36.5%

  • Total voters
    63
You are correct. However the difference was in how the cuts were applied and carried out. G.H. Bush was instituting stepped planed out reductions. Clinton just did a massive cut and that was carried out piecemeal because it had not been planed out.
Thanks for your expert tesimony on that. The military and intelligence services were downsized at the end of the Cold War as the long-awaited "Peace Dividend" was harvested. The start and rather a large chunk of that came under Bush-41, not Clinton. The military was not left in disarray or underequipped by Clinton, as the war in Afghanistan and invasion of Iraq would each speedily demonstrate.

No we did not use "the same military" that Clinton left Bush in both wars, or even one of them. What you apparently are not aware of is that the reports of readiness and training status were complete fabrications.
Of course they were. Your personal reports and anecdotes will certainly be given all the weight they are due.

Wow, an actual admission that it wasn't all "Bush's Fault".
Correct. The Russian and Asian financial crises were not Bush's fault. These were however mere background -- parts of the the terrain on which the Great Bush Recession would come to play out. Assigning actual blame to them -- or to things like GLB or CFMA -- would be like blaming bank robberies on the paving of downtown streets that made escape easier for potential get-away vehicles. Life could have gone on after those two crises. But it didn't. Thanks to Bush and his pals.

The rest of the nearly $7 trillion dollars that Obama and the dems have spent and added to the debt since Bush left office.
First of all, the debt has increased since January 20, 2009, by $5.7 trillion. Second of all, the debt is actively managed by Treasury, meaning that things other than deficits contribute to its ups and downs. There is no necessary connection between the debt and deficits. As for the deficits themselves, those for the past four years (2009-2012) have in total been just under $5.1 trillion, $1.2 trillion of which was already on the books by the time Obama was sworn in. That leaves deficits of $3.9 trillion, 40-45% of which have resulted from federal revenues lost due to the Great Bush Recession, 40-45% of which have resulted from automatic stabilizers and other emergency income support measures made necessary by the Great Bush Recession, and 15-20% of which have resulted from the underlying budget positions, although Republican efforts to gum up the works and engage in terrorist hostage-taking have made passage of actual budget bills all but impossible, resulting in one omnibus spending bill after another.

You blamed it all on Bush. I admit that some of it was for issues that came up under Bush, but that only account for a minority of the money spent by Obama and the dems. So where it the rest of it? Where is the money that was borrowed and given out as loans during the bailout that financial institutions have been repaying?
I don't think you understand how any of this works. You seem to have TARP and the various Fed/Treasury asset-exchange facilities all balled up and not to understand that there is no connection between any expenditure and any particular General Fund cash balance or borrowing.

Not really. The biggest problem with what was offered up was the mandate that states pay unemployment to not only those who had paid into the system, or their employers did, but to everyone unemployed...
Nonsense. Those who have not paid into the unemployment insurance pool are not eligible for UI benefits under any federal law or under any state law that I am aware of. This includes for instance recently graduated students and self-employed persons who elected not to make regular payments into the pool.

...and also that the state had to cover unemployment from other states when people moved looking for work.
Also complete nonsense. This happens all the time. Interstate claims are all billable to the state in which you worked and thereby contributed to the UI pool. You must go to the local unemployment office in your new state and fill out a form to register your interstate claim. That is all.

That would depend totally on the individual situation.
Yes, and I gave you the particulars of an individual situation that (not surprisingly) you have refused to address. To summarize, these were people denied credit when they had more assets in the bank that they were trying to borrow from than the amount that they were trying to borrow. Meanwhile, similarly situated borrowers in other parts of town were being routinely approved for loans. Want to give it a second shot?
 
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They will blame each other. Personally though I think the blame belongs more so with the Dems/Obama. I see the Republicans willing to compromise and the Dems/Obama less willing too.
 
It also did not justify the extension of zero down loans, sub-prime loans, interest only loans, etc, using variable interest rates...
There is exactly nothing wrong with any such lending. Each is an appropriate choice under the circumstances it was designed for. Responsible lenders engaged in all of these. The problems arose when IRRESPONSIBLE lenders -- taking advantage of conditions and demands that Bush and his pals created -- used such loans to abuse credit markets and the borrowers in them, creating large profits and much larger volumes of mortgage paper that they themselves knew full well was destined for short-term failure at the moment the loan was signed. Those people and those who enabled them are the ones to blame for all this. That comes down to a bunch of cowboy capitalists on Wall Street and the completely dismal fiscal, monetary, and regulatory policies of the Bush administration.

The were bad lending practices, encouraged by the government through Fannie and Freddie, to meet low/moderate income home ownership goals. All of which was taking place prior to Bush ever entering office.
Fannie and Freddie's line of business was the purchase of conforming loans, that is loans that met established minimum underwriting standards. Ultimately, the junk that couldn't get through that filter went off to Wall Street where it was securitized and sold off into the secondary markets anyway. The private-label shops had no such standards or filters and would buy almost anything at all. As noted earlier, the profit potential in Alt-A and subprime markets had come to the attention of traditional lenders in the mid to late 1990's. Between 1993 and 2001, subprime originations had gone from $25 billion to $175 billion. Subprime was the market at the turn of the century, and the GSE's were preparing to work with lenders as they moved into this new area. After being on the subprime sidelines for virtually all of the 1990's, the GSE's purchased 11% of subprime originations in 2001 (again skimming off the cream of the crop) and were hoping to reach 50% within a few years. That of course didn't happen.

I still don't get the "Bush is entirely to blame" line since almost all of the factors involved were in place before he took Office. Did he and the republicans in some cases exacerbate an existing problem, sure. Did they create it, no.
Not all dominos are the first domino. The Great Bush Recession was a product of the credit crisis. The credit crisis was a product of defaults on mortgages written by predatory lenders into vulnerable markets. Those loans could be securitized and sold at all only because of unscrupulous underwriters and securitizers sucking profits out of elevated demand for mortgage-backed securities. That elevated demand existed because the Fed had frozen its long-term interest rates at an unattractive 1%. That happened because Bush's Tax Cuts for the Rich failed to produce any meaningful new economic activity. The Tax Cuts for the Rich came about because Bush and his people were economic incompetents. That incompetency extended to moronic laissez-faire notions that markets were wise enough to regulate themselves. Thus even when warnings were sounded concerning the potential calamity inherent in so many recently written predatory loans running into triggers when interest rates once again began to rise were completely ignored. That was the extent of it. All Bush and the cowboy capitalists all the time. The rest was inert windowdressing that contributed nothing. There would not have been a Great Bush Recession without the craven and bungled behaviors summarized above.

Outsourcing was happening since at least the 1950s, GM had moved plants to Brazil even earlier than that.
Outsourcing had nothing to do with the Great Bush Recession, and there is actually quite a difference between outsourcing and foreign investment. GM built cars in Brazil because it sold cars in Brazil.

Bad lending practices were going on long before 2001. Al Qaeda was attacking US interest long before 2001 also. Operations in Iraq had been going on since 1990.
Big deal. It's all irrelevant. There are no dots to connect here.

Name a single thing contributing to the debt or the economic downturn that was not already happening prior to Bush taking office. Even when Clinton had a surplus, the debt still increased every year he was in office.
Of course it did, as anyone who understood that the Social Security budget surplus caused an increase in public debt as it was invested would have been expecting. The debt did of course decline every time Clinton bought some of it down, but that $363 billion was not enough to show up in the overall numbers when measured across an entire fiscal year.
 
They will blame each other. Personally though I think the blame belongs more so with the Dems/Obama. I see the Republicans willing to compromise and the Dems/Obama less willing too.

I agree, this administration wants unlimited spending with no accountability
 
Just as a note, with the limited amount of work I've done with budget and how it applies with Public Employees and early retirement.

EARLY retirement (I don't believe retiring at 45, outside of in the military, is the standard for federal public employees) is being offered more regularly by the government currently because in many situations it provides for a net SAVINGS, not cost, by doing so.

The way this works is because it's combined with attrition.

Say a person is 5 years away from retirement. You can continue to pay them their full salary for the next 5 years, at which point they begin pulling in their retirement which we'll say is (pulling a number out of my head) 20% of what their normal salary was. So over the next ten years you're paying them:

100% + 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% + 20% + 20% + 20% + 20% + 20% = Paid 600% of their sallary over the next 10 years.

However, say that person is offered an early retirement with an incentive that they will be paid an additional 10% over their standard retirement for the next 10 years. This means over the next ten years you're paying them:

30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% = Paid 300% of their sallary over the next 10 years.

By offering the early retirement, even with the "incentive" bonus, you're actually SAVING half of what you'd have paid the person otherwise. Now, this number fails completely if you end up replacing the retiring person with someone whose making the same (or even a certain percentage lower) salary as the former employee. However, when you combine it with attrition...IE that position isn't filled with a new employee but rather the duties are ended/shuffled to others...then you have a net savings.

This is why the government has been offerring up early retirements more lately. They can't get out of the notion of the pention plans they've already agreed to, so they're going to be paying the retirement costs. If they can get the person retired earlier however, and don't need to actually hire someone to replace that persons spot, then over the long term they SAVE money compared to what would alternatively happened if they didn't offer the early out.

Okay thanks. I see what you're saying.

But like you said, you only save if the position is not refilled. I would think that most of the time they hire someone else to fill the position of the retired employee. That also depends on if they have to pay a new employee more or less money as well, I would think.
 
Well Zyphlin supplied a rational response to your statement but I wonder how many "public employees" are actually retiring at age 45? Sure there's some corruption in the process but isn't it the reality that those few who are making out like bandits are known about because of certain media outlets who like to hype up their specific political views by providing examples to 'prove' said views?

and what does your response have to do with my post about increasing the level of income subject to FICA?

I didn't like your idea, so I was trying to think of something else.
 
We don't know that "everyone else did"? Unprovable statement, You saw it the way you did, me the way I did and others made their own opinions. Since I have seen other post supporting flat even taxes, I can say, without doubt that not everyone saw it the way you described.
What do flat taxes have to do with Tax Cuts for the Rich? Flat taxes by the way are simply schemes to reduce tax burden on the rich and dump it on the middle and lower classes instead. What else is new.

As to the rest, did the factors exist prior to Bush/republicans taking office? Yes. If they existed prior to Bush taking office, is Bush/republicans solely responsible for them? No. So, can Bush/republicans be held entirely responsible for current problems? No.
Everybody is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts. Bush and the cowboy capitalists were responsible for the greatest economic collase in 75 years. They created it. Nobody else.
 
I think that both of them are to blame, the democrats and republicans should compromise to find a solution fast.
 
I think that both of them are to blame, the democrats and republicans should compromise to find a solution fast.

I am looking forward to paying more taxes while entitlements and subsidies dry up. It will be worth it to watch all these drains on society have to to whatever they can find to feed themselves.
 
What magic properties does the number "3" have? Why would a slow 75-year projected decline past that number suggest anything special at all? Especially when the decline is premised among other things on legal and illegal immigration being flat or falling across most of that 75 years and on life expectancy at retirement continuing to increase at rates that it did during the 20th century.

And one would also have to consider whether workers-per-retiree is even the right number to be looking at. In fact, that ratio is a component isolated from the larger workers-per-dependent ratio. Retired people and children are the two largest categories there. What's been going on with the children component? Are the baby boomers having any more kids? How about with the prison population? Changes in one category may be freeing up funds to devote to another at no net cost, but you won't know that unless you look.

The current employment-to-population rate is meanwhile 58.7%. As recently as December 1977, that would have been the highest level since WWII. But the best big-picture number for whether we can afford to support our dependents may simply be real per capita GDP. Here's the graph of that over the past 50 years...

View attachment 67139945
Its not the number 3 that has any significance, just that 2.1 represents more than a 30% reduction from 3.1-3.2.

That's a good, and interesting point. Except for the fact that many of those child services + education have gotten significantly more expensive in the last few decades, so while numbers may not be changing, costs are still rising. Besides, I don't see anyone propose we start cutting Headstart or education in the near future to push money into SS.
For the same reason that they did? Look, considering the fact that 75% of scheduled benefits will be worth more by the time the SSTF runs out (assuming it ever does) than what 100% of benefits are worth today, those who will be retired in the second half of this century might want to roll the dice and just keep payroll taxes where they are. But if people are as concerned as they say they are about the financial future of the system, then lining up to pay more taxes to support it is the only logical choice for those who don't happen to be otherwise wealthy enough to have arranged for a secure retirement already.
Could you provide your source on that first part? I'm thinking that you are talking about nominal dollars, in which case the scheduled benefits would not be greater.

I'd much rather see the retirement age increased, and in the long term pegged to life expectancy.

Plenty of people who aren't in the top 1% can manage their own retirement. And how much of the fact that people aren't saving is the fault of social security? Regardless, SS would be a far better program if it was based on individual accounts which taught people how to save and invest their own money. But it seems recessions like 2008 always scare people off from saving, despite the fact that they are usually mere blimps in the long term, bigger picture.

We have had both booms and busts. The early 70's, early 80's, and early 90's were hardly the best of times, to say nothing of the Bush-43 administration and since. Do you think it is realistic or pessimistic to project 70 consecutive years of growth at 1.7%, when between 1960 and 2010, we exceeded it 31 times and average growth was 12% higher than that?


And at 2:00 am, it is merely wishful thinking to believe the sun will come up again until you can see the glint of some early morning rays. And we don't need 4% growth to blow the SS projections out of the water. 2% would do the job just fine. Remember: 1997 = SSTF exhausted in 2029...2007 = SSTF exhausted in 2042.
So... 1.7% growth rates are too pessimistic, but 2.0% would do just fine?


Look up the free-rider problem then do the math. A system of near universal coverage cannot be sustained without near universal participation which is not going to happen without a mandate. Which is why Republicans first proposed it.
It was a bad idea even when they first proposed it.

I'm not in favor of it, because it completely eliminates the possibility of concierge medicine being available to the general public.

If that were true, you would have gone off to the library by now and read up on it. The demise of employment-based pensions is hardly some well-kept secret.
I'd like to see some evidence that it is just a right wing conspiracy theory rather than an actual problem.


No, they didn't, and the union had made years worth of concessions on compensation across the board in order to help GM et al. through their problems, many of those the plain result of poor planning and decisionmaking on the part of management. The auto industry as a whole was put in a bind by the Great Bush Recession. That is what brought about the bailouts. Ford was able to get by without assistance only because it has serendipitously arranged lines of credit totalling more than $25 billion before the crisis hit. GM and Chrysler had no such cushion to sit on.
Of course bad management played a role.... but Detriot's contracts with the UAW gave its workers better retirement benefits than Toyota or any other competitor. Higher cost units=more expensive cars=less units sold. GM's pension obligations are currently around $136B. Non-unionized Toyota on the other hand, pays its workers the same hourly wage, not nearly as generous health benefits, and its workers have their own retirement IRAs rather than pension plans.
Its not the whole problem, but it does leave far less room for error and far greater consequences if it doesn't work out.




On the most elemenatry of scales, this must obviously be true. On any practical, sensible, analytical scale, it couldn't be further from the truth. The economics of a nation are a different animal entirely from the economics of a firm. This should fhave been made eminently clear in the very early days of your education.
Actually, one of the first things I learned in economics was the Lucas critique. "The Lucas critique suggests that if we want to predict the effect of a policy experiment, we should model the "deep parameters" (relating to preferences, technology and resource constraints) that are assumed to govern individual behavior; so called "microfoundations". If these models can account for observed empirical regularities, we can then predict what individuals will do, taking into account the change in policy, and then aggregate the individual decisions to calculate the macroeconomic effects of the policy change." Lucas (1976), p. 21



You are too young to have learned better yet. You are still taken by neat and tidy and by the bright, shiny objects otherwise known as simplistic explanations. Your assumptions about the nature and value of land are chalkboard hallucinations. Things do not work that way in the real world. In the real world, two of the key determinants of land value are alternative capital gains rates and the existing level of real estate debt. I didn't see either one of those in your outline.
I wasn't outlining how the tax should be implimented, rather the rationale behind its reasoning. Regardless, I'm not seeing how that disputes the validity of a national property tax? We already tax at local and state levels, why would this not work at a federal level?
 
EARLY retirement (I don't believe retiring at 45, outside of in the military, is the standard for federal public employees) is being offered more regularly by the government currently because in many situations it provides for a net SAVINGS, not cost, by doing so.
To provide a little background on the federal employee questions, about 30% of federal employees are represented by a union (the National Treasury Employees Union and the American Federation of Government Employees are the two largest ones), but those unions DO NOT bargain for wages or any benefits such as pensions. Wages and benefits for all federal employees are set by Congress through legislation.

Congress has in fact established two federal civilian retirement systems, the older Civil Service Retirement System, and the newer Federal Employees Retirement System. Everyone hired in 1984 or later is in FERS. Those hired in 1983 or earlier would have begun their careers in CSRS. They were given the opportunity to elect FERS coverage instead when it became available, and that made sense for those with less than 5-7 years of service at the time.

CSRS employees pay 7% of their wages into the Civil Service Retirement Fund. They may also pay up to 5% into the Thrift Savings Plan (a 401-k equivalent) but with no employer matching. CSRS employees are eligible to retire once they are both 55 years of age and have 30 years of federal service. At that point their pensions would equal 56% of the average of their three highest years of earnings. They can accrue an additional 2% per year by continuing to work, up to a maximum of 80% at 42 years of service. CSRS employees do not contribute to Social Security and hence are not eligible for a pension benefit.

FERS employees pay 6.2% of their wages into Social Security and 0.8% into the Civil Service Retirement Fund. They may also pay up to 5% into the Thrift Savings Plan with full employer matching. FERS employees are eligible to retire once they are both 55-57 years of age (depending on year of birth) and have 30 years of federal service. At that point their pensions would equal 30% of the average of their three highest years of earnings. They can accrue an additional 1% per year by continuing to work, but if they work to at least age 62, all those 1%'s become 1.1%, so most people do that. FERS employees retire with their FERS pensions, a standard Social Security pension, plus whatever they have managed to make out of their TSP/401-k accounts.

The median federal retiree has worked four years beyond eligibility at the time he or she actually retires. One in four has worked at least nine years past eligibiltiy. Some people do of course retire at 55/30 and return to the private sector where they can often command higher wages and earn credits toward a Social Security pension. Those who receive both a federal pension and a Social Security pension based on private sector credits face rather stiff reductions in their SS benefits on the grounds that this is some sort of double-dipping.

In addition to the standard 55/30, retirement is possible at 60/20 and 65/5. These are uncommon and of course result in smaller pensions.

The information above does not apply to the military, and it does not apply either to certain foreign service and intelligence service employees who have similar but somewhat more generous retirement systems owing to the risks and hardships their work typically entails.
 
Its not the number 3 that has any significance, just that 2.1 represents more than a 30% reduction from 3.1-3.2.
Your math is better than some here at least, but there is nothing magical about a projected 30% reduction over the next 75 years either. In 1950, the worker-retiree ratio was 16.5-to-1. That's about an 80% reduction over the past 65 years. Productivity per worker increased enough over that time for a typical worker to be able to support five retirees instead of one. The role of real per capita GDP is not to be taken lightly here. I think the earlier graph of that ended up being an invalid attachment somehow, so here it is again...

per_cap_GDP_1960-2010.jpg

And again, putting faith in the trustees' projected 2.1 number is putting faith in a projection of flat and declining immigration going forward, even though the retirement of the baby boomers will be creating increasing demand in the personal and health services industries that immigrants dominate.

That's a good, and interesting point. Except for the fact that many of those child services + education have gotten significantly more expensive in the last few decades, so while numbers may not be changing, costs are still rising.
Costs have increased as we have added new layers. Pre-school, after-school care, tutoring, and test-prep are all but ubiquitous today where they were quite uncommon yesterday. This suggests an increasing ability to invest in child-dependents. It seems odd to suggest a declining ability to invest in elderly-dependents at the same time, unless we are simply throwing Granny from the train so that we may further coddle Junior.

Besides, I don't see anyone propose we start cutting Headstart or education in the near future to push money into SS.
Right, they just want to cut Headstart and education, period.

Could you provide your source on that first part? I'm thinking that you are talking about nominal dollars, in which case the scheduled benefits would not be greater.
No, it's a matter of purchasing power (aka "lifestyle" in some sources) which is preserved through the use of wage rates rather than inflation rates in determining initial benefit levels. The purcahsing power of 75% of scheduled benefits in 40 years will be greater than the purchasing power of 100% of scheduled benefits today.

I'd much rather see the retirement age increased...
It was already increased from 65 to 67. That's one thing for a nice, cushy office worker, quite another for a telephone or electrical lineman or other worker subject to continuous physical stress and injury throughout his career. How long do you think you can force these people to keep working? Many of them have physically crashed and burned already by 60. Keep trotting them out there and you'll simply end up paying them from the disability pool instead of from the retirement pool.

...and in the long term pegged to life expectancy.
Really? Life expectancy for whom? As calculated by whom?
 
There is exactly nothing wrong with any such lending. Each is an appropriate choice under the circumstances it was designed for. Responsible lenders engaged in all of these. The problems arose when IRRESPONSIBLE lenders -- taking advantage of conditions and demands that Bush and his pals created -- used such loans to abuse credit markets and the borrowers in them, creating large profits and much larger volumes of mortgage paper that they themselves knew full well was destined for short-term failure at the moment the loan was signed. Those people and those who enabled them are the ones to blame for all this. That comes down to a bunch of cowboy capitalists on Wall Street and the completely dismal fiscal, monetary, and regulatory policies of the Bush administration.


Fannie and Freddie's line of business was the purchase of conforming loans, that is loans that met established minimum underwriting standards. Ultimately, the junk that couldn't get through that filter went off to Wall Street where it was securitized and sold off into the secondary markets anyway. The private-label shops had no such standards or filters and would buy almost anything at all. As noted earlier, the profit potential in Alt-A and subprime markets had come to the attention of traditional lenders in the mid to late 1990's. Between 1993 and 2001, subprime originations had gone from $25 billion to $175 billion. Subprime was the market at the turn of the century, and the GSE's were preparing to work with lenders as they moved into this new area. After being on the subprime sidelines for virtually all of the 1990's, the GSE's purchased 11% of subprime originations in 2001 (again skimming off the cream of the crop) and were hoping to reach 50% within a few years. That of course didn't happen.


Not all dominos are the first domino. The Great Bush Recession was a product of the credit crisis. The credit crisis was a product of defaults on mortgages written by predatory lenders into vulnerable markets. Those loans could be securitized and sold at all only because of unscrupulous underwriters and securitizers sucking profits out of elevated demand for mortgage-backed securities. That elevated demand existed because the Fed had frozen its long-term interest rates at an unattractive 1%. That happened because Bush's Tax Cuts for the Rich failed to produce any meaningful new economic activity. The Tax Cuts for the Rich came about because Bush and his people were economic incompetents. That incompetency extended to moronic laissez-faire notions that markets were wise enough to regulate themselves. Thus even when warnings were sounded concerning the potential calamity inherent in so many recently written predatory loans running into triggers when interest rates once again began to rise were completely ignored. That was the extent of it. All Bush and the cowboy capitalists all the time. The rest was inert windowdressing that contributed nothing. There would not have been a Great Bush Recession without the craven and bungled behaviors summarized above.


Outsourcing had nothing to do with the Great Bush Recession, and there is actually quite a difference between outsourcing and foreign investment. GM built cars in Brazil because it sold cars in Brazil.


Big deal. It's all irrelevant. There are no dots to connect here.


Of course it did, as anyone who understood that the Social Security budget surplus caused an increase in public debt as it was invested would have been expecting. The debt did of course decline every time Clinton bought some of it down, but that $363 billion was not enough to show up in the overall numbers when measured across an entire fiscal year.

Thank you. Your demonstration in this one post of the depth of your ignorance/comprehension has probably done more to undermine you arguments than anything I could of written myself. I say ignorance/comprehension because you clearly demonstrate a singular bias that blinds you to other facts, as your insistence that there was only a single contributing factor clearly demonstrates.

You have now saved me an unknown amount of time in writing counters, since you have so thoroughly shot your own stance in the foot. No further need for me to argue anything.

Good day.
 
I guess you really can learn from your mistakes. Obama got his clock cleaned and had to back down in the last two budgets over extending the debt ceiling. Now he is not playing that same weak role any longer apparently empowered by he election results.

The GOP will take the hit.
 
Your math is better than some here at least, but there is nothing magical about a projected 30% reduction over the next 75 years either. In 1950, the worker-retiree ratio was 16.5-to-1. That's about an 80% reduction over the past 65 years. Productivity per worker increased enough over that time for a typical worker to be able to support five retirees instead of one. The role of real per capita GDP is not to be taken lightly here. I think the earlier graph of that ended up being an invalid attachment somehow, so here it is again...

View attachment 67140016

And again, putting faith in the trustees' projected 2.1 number is putting faith in a projection of flat and declining immigration going forward, even though the retirement of the baby boomers will be creating increasing demand in the personal and health services industries that immigrants dominate.
Yes thank you for posting a valid link to the graph. But what I'm really interested in, is what growth rate do we need to ensure it doesn't encounter problems?

Costs have increased as we have added new layers. Pre-school, after-school care, tutoring, and test-prep are all but ubiquitous today where they were quite uncommon yesterday. This suggests an increasing ability to invest in child-dependents. It seems odd to suggest a declining ability to invest in elderly-dependents at the same time, unless we are simply throwing Granny from the train so that we may further coddle Junior.
Who wants to throw Granny from the train? Granny has been doing just fine.

Right, they just want to cut Headstart and education, period.
Which I don't agree with either. Problem is, they just cut what is most convenient, rather cutting what is the least important and reforming what is the most expensive.

No, it's a matter of purchasing power (aka "lifestyle" in some sources) which is preserved through the use of wage rates rather than inflation rates in determining initial benefit levels. The purcahsing power of 75% of scheduled benefits in 40 years will be greater than the purchasing power of 100% of scheduled benefits today.
What I'm more concerned about is, will the rate of return be greater or less in 40 years than it is today?

It was already increased from 65 to 67. That's one thing for a nice, cushy office worker, quite another for a telephone or electrical lineman or other worker subject to continuous physical stress and injury throughout his career. How long do you think you can force these people to keep working? Many of them have physically crashed and burned already by 60. Keep trotting them out there and you'll simply end up paying them from the disability pool instead of from the retirement pool.
Obviously. But telephone workers endure physical injury?

But when I say retirement age, I just mean the age at which SS benefits start. So it isn't neccesarily "retirement."

Really? Life expectancy for whom? As calculated by whom?

Life expectancy for the country as a whole, as calculated by the CDC.

I know SS isn't the "WORSE THING EVER" but I disagree with the low rate of returns that it gives compared to many mutual funds, and the fact that most people don't save at all and expect SS to give them a full retirement. Ideally I'd much rather see SS turn into a mixed system, with it being mostly private accounts, and perhaps make benefits if someone over say 65 declares bankruptcy. It was supposed to be old age insurance, not an actual retirement. How this could be implemented at this point in time, I'm not entirely sure, but over time I think we could transition smoothly if it is managed effectively.
 
Plenty of people who aren't in the top 1% can manage their own retirement.
Plenty of people who ARE in the top 1% CAN'T. There are two things that American males can be counted on to badly overestimate -- how good they are in bed, and what savvy, clever investors they are. The average person does not have either the time or interest it takes to become an effective financial manager. And guess who will end up with all their money if you force them to try.

And how much of the fact that people aren't saving is the fault of social security?
Social Security is an insurance scheme. Paying the premiums IS a form of saving. And savings rates have of course soared since the Great Bush Recession as people try to reduce debt and reconstitute recently eradicated wealth.

Regardless, SS would be a far better program if it was based on individual accounts which taught people how to save and invest their own money. But it seems recessions like 2008 always scare people off from saving, despite the fact that they are usually mere blimps in the long term, bigger picture.
Blips? It takes a 100% gain to recover from a 50% loss. Ordinary Americans lost about $7 trillion from their IRA/401-k wealth over 15 months as the result of the Great Bush Recession. All but overnight, people's long-tended nest eggs were simply vaporized on them. For anyone within perhaps five years of retiring, this was a case of going back to square-one. That is not a blip. SS is meanwhile risk-free to the worker and it requires no extra effort at all. Adding both risk and work to the process is a highly undesirable double-negative. No serious retirement analyst will suggest that more work and more risk are the answers to anything.

So... 1.7% growth rates are too pessimistic, but 2.0% would do just fine?
2% would all by itself be at least approaching the cusp in assuring that in fact the SS Trust Fund would never be exhauted and 100% of scheduled benefits could be paid in perpetuity. You'd really rather see another tenth or three in that regard if you were relying on growth alone to blow the trustees away, but 2% would at least get close. The options the SS Trustees project are labelled High, Intermediate, and Low. They would more honestly be called About Average, Below Average, and Way Below Average.

It was a bad idea even when they first proposed it. I'm not in favor of it, because it completely eliminates the possibility of concierge medicine being available to the general public.
The mandate is a requirement unless you have found and not reported a solution to the free-rider problem that others have not. Your upscale boutique-level health care is meanwhile not prohibited or restrained by PPACA at all. The general public won't be getting any, just as they don't get any now.

I'd like to see some evidence that it is just a right wing conspiracy theory rather than an actual problem.
Again then why haven't you? What has kept you from learning, given all this interest you have? So let's take a quick peak. According to right-wingers, federal workers have the ne plus ultra cushy public sector retirement system. And according to the 2010 OPM Annual Report on the state of that system, total assets will continue to grow throughout the 70-year term of its projections, ultimately reaching a level of more than four times annual federal payroll, or about nineteen times the level of annual benefit payments. Sound like it's teetering on the brink to you?

Of course bad management played a role.... but Detriot's contracts with the UAW gave its workers better retirement benefits than Toyota or any other competitor.
Speaking of free-riders, the non-union southern auto plants simply piggyback their wages and benefits on UAW contracts. They have even boasted about it on their websites. If they didn't march along just a step or two behind what the UAW negotiates, they would lose significant portions of their workforce to better paying union shops. The UAW is simply negotiating here on behalf of tens of thousands of piker-workers who don't pay a dime in dues.

GM's pension obligations are currently around $136B. Non-unionized Toyota on the other hand, pays its workers the same hourly wage, not nearly as generous health benefits, and its workers have their own retirement IRAs rather than pension plans.
Apples versus oranges? How many people have worked at the southern plants long enough to reach retirement? I can tell you that in 2010 it was 3,200 for Honda. What do you think GM's number would look like?

Actually, one of the first things I learned in economics was the Lucas critique.
I doubt you would have understood a single word Lucas was saying if it was among the first things you had learned. There has also been a great deal of development simply in terms of processing power since 1976. Dynamic general equilibrium models today reach rather deeply into assorted sticky and frictional factors as well as into the exogenous world. Horses of a different color from what Lucas was considering. It remains true in any case that micro and macro are different worlds and that deadweight loss is an element of the former.

I wasn't outlining how the tax should be implimented, rather the rationale behind its reasoning. Regardless, I'm not seeing how that disputes the validity of a national property tax?
Your original claims were that land is not variable and cannot expand over time, and further that its value cannot be negatively distorted by taxes, being derived solely from natural resources and the surrounding community. None of these assumptions can be upheld. If these are the rationale behind any sort of plan at all, then that plan is not well supported at all.

We already tax at local and state levels, why would this not work at a federal level?
We tax the value of property. We do that at the level that assessors deem the property of whatever sort likely to fetch if it were to be offered for sale. Assays and mining surveys do not enter into that process. Significant numbers of annual appeals do enter into it. The objection isn't in any case raised as to the capacity of imposing a national land tax, merely as to the justiification, practicality, and wisdom of it.
 
Thank you. Your demonstration in this one post of the depth of your ignorance/comprehension has probably done more to undermine you arguments than anything I could of written myself. I say ignorance/comprehension because you clearly demonstrate a singular bias that blinds you to other facts, as your insistence that there was only a single contributing factor clearly demonstrates. You have now saved me an unknown amount of time in writing counters, since you have so thoroughly shot your own stance in the foot. No further need for me to argue anything. Good day.
LOL! When overwhelmed by fact and reason, throw silly insults at people, then claim victory and go home.
 
I guess you really can learn from your mistakes. Obama got his clock cleaned and had to back down in the last two budgets over extending the debt ceiling. Now he is not playing that same weak role any longer apparently empowered by he election results.
You can't always get what you want in politics. Some like it and some don't, but Obama has stuck at least until now to a notion of fighting one battle with an eye to the next one. That has served him well in the long-run.

The GOP will take the hit.
They are in quite a bind at the moment. They will likely duck out through the back door of some short-term deal and hope they can do better down the road. You never know, but that seems increasingly unlikely these days.
 
Okay thanks. I see what you're saying.

But like you said, you only save if the position is not refilled. I would think that most of the time they hire someone else to fill the position of the retired employee. That also depends on if they have to pay a new employee more or less money as well, I would think.

Can't say with certainty it's the case with all Federal agencies, but I know there are a large amount of Federal Agencies that are currently functioning under an Attrition plan in which they are only able to hire one new person for every 2 people they lose.
 
Man..... you need to get out of the bubble every once in a while.

What are you talking about? It was simply shelved as an issue, right before campaign time. Obama's idea of balance is to tax the rich a bit more and keep right on borrowing and spending, doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result.
 
I guess you really can learn from your mistakes. Obama got his clock cleaned and had to back down in the last two budgets over extending the debt ceiling. Now he is not playing that same weak role any longer apparently empowered by he election results.

The GOP will take the hit.
Say what you want about Obama and his policies....... he's a very smart man. At least he learns from his mistakes.

He won the election. The R's seemed to think they had won and got to decide what happened. Same stuff, different day from last year. Obama from a strictly political standpoint has handled this with some Clintonesqe political savy.

The R's at the Republican presidential candidates at the debate when asked if they would accept $10 of spending cuts to $1 in taxes, all rejected that deal. Now the R's will be lucky to get a $1 to $1 deal. Thats just an amazing turn around.

If I was an establishment Republican I would be pissed at the Tea Party. They have cost them the Senate, the house and probably the Presidency, a chance to seriously go after medicare, medicaid and Social Security.
 
Yes thank you for posting a valid link to the graph. But what I'm really interested in, is what growth rate do we need to ensure it doesn't encounter problems?
Well, let's see. Real per capita GDP is real GDP divided by population. There are many sites that present the long-term population projections of various demographers. With such numbers in hand, the rest should be easy.

Who wants to throw Granny from the train? Granny has been doing just fine.
Whence all the concern then that projected declining worker-per-retiree ratios are going to crash Social Security?

Which I don't agree with either. Problem is, they just cut what is most convenient, rather cutting what is the least important and reforming what is the most expensive.
What's most expensive is rather easily discovered. Not so for what is "least important".

What I'm more concerned about is, will the rate of return be greater or less in 40 years than it is today?
That depends on your own earnings history and -- obviously -- what if anything gets done to SS tax and benefit calculations in the future. As of right now, an average worker with a wife and two children who retires in 2030 at age 67 will have earned a real rate of return of just under 4% per year. A high-income earner retiring under similar conditions could conceivably have earned a negative real rate of return. That happens only rarely, but if you earn a lot, you will do fine with SS in terms of absolute dollars, but not so well with regard to rate of return.

Obviously. But telephone workers endure physical injury?
Yes, telephone and electrical lineman don't face quite the same risks as farmers or lumberjacks, but they are high on the list of most frequently injured workers.

But when I say retirement age, I just mean the age at which SS benefits start. So it isn't neccesarily "retirement."
The problem is the gap between when people need to or are forced to retire (as in not working) and the point at which they can begin to receive benefits. You want to broaden that gap when it is already too broad. Poeple who can't or can't find work are already being forced to take early retirement at 62 simply to have an income, even though they take at least a 25% cut in their monthly benefit by doing so. You want to make that situation even worse?

Life expectancy for the country as a whole, as calculated by the CDC.
CDC is one source and they break virtually all of their tables down by race and gender. There are also relevant differences to be found based on native versus foreign-born, smoker versus non-smoker, urban versus rural, high school graduate verus dropout, and on and on. You'd better have a good team of lawyers with you when you decide to use national numbers that will unavoidably discriminate against one or the other of all of these groups and more.

I know SS isn't the "WORSE THING EVER" but I disagree with the low rate of returns that it gives compared to many mutual funds...
Advertised rates of return for mutual funds are trash. Claims that the stock market has historically returned this or that are garbage. Assuming that you can hope to do better than a 2% real rate of return over the long term will be a mistake.

...and the fact that most people don't save at all and expect SS to give them a full retirement.
People who can't save don't save. If you want low-income workers to save, you will have to pay them enough so that they can afford to do so. Traditionally, there have been four legs to the stool of retirement security: employment-based pensions, Social Security, Medicare, and personal savings. Social Security is easily in the best shape of the four at the present time. Very few people meanwhile rely on Social Security for 100% of their income. It is a significant portion of income however to most elderly Americans. In 2010, 65% of elderly Americans received at least half of their income from Social Security.

Ideally I'd much rather see SS turn into a mixed system, with it being mostly private accounts...
Because you think you can do better, and perhaps you could. But you already have every avenue open to you for doing so. There are all manner of tax-advantaged and other investment avenues and opportunities open to your game-playing and portfolio-building. Go for it. But why insist that others do the same? Why deny anyone the minimal guaranteed floor of security in old age that Social Security provides?
 
Plenty of people who ARE in the top 1% CAN'T. There are two things that American males can be counted on to badly overestimate -- how good they are in bed, and what savvy, clever investors they are. The average person does not have either the time or interest it takes to become an effective financial manager. And guess who will end up with all their money if you force them to try.
You're damn right about that one. People have too big of egos when it comes to investing. Everyone things they will be the one to pick the big winner that will make them exceedingly rich. And you're right, technical analysis nerds make absolute killings shorting those stocks all the way to the bank. But if you're too proud to make smart decisions, that's a personal problem.

Investing isn't rocket science. Its not even that exciting. Its quite boring, considering the goal is to invest in value and limit downside as much as possible. So its not so much stock "picking" as it is stock watching, waiting for companies that everyone knows are good to for whatever reason fall below market values.

I'm not suggesting they have to make every single stock pick themselves. Actually, most people have no business in the stock market. So if that is you, then you should be in mutual of mutual funds. They actually have very low cost overhead mutual funds based on the DJIA, NASDAQ, or S&P 500 at the most basic level. Does that sound like a high stress way to save to you?

On a side note its a shame that personal finance isn't a mandatory class for every high school graduate.
Social Security is an insurance scheme. Paying the premiums IS a form of saving. And savings rates have of course soared since the Great Bush Recession as people try to reduce debt and reconstitute recently eradicated wealth.
Saving with no choices in how to stash that money is not saving.
Blips? It takes a 100% gain to recover from a 50% loss. Ordinary Americans lost about $7 trillion from their IRA/401-k wealth over 15 months as the result of the Great Bush Recession. All but overnight, people's long-tended nest eggs were simply vaporized on them. For anyone within perhaps five years of retiring, this was a case of going back to square-one. That is not a blip. SS is meanwhile risk-free to the worker and it requires no extra effort at all. Adding both risk and work to the process is a highly undesirable double-negative. No serious retirement analyst will suggest that more work and more risk are the answers to anything.
So whats happened since those 15 months? Let's see... oh the stock market is nearly back to pre-recession values. Blip.

2% would all by itself be at least approaching the cusp in assuring that in fact the SS Trust Fund would never be exhauted and 100% of scheduled benefits could be paid in perpetuity. You'd really rather see another tenth or three in that regard if you were relying on growth alone to blow the trustees away, but 2% would at least get close. The options the SS Trustees project are labelled High, Intermediate, and Low. They would more honestly be called About Average, Below Average, and Way Below Average.
That doesn't explain how 2% is somehow magically better then 1.7%

The mandate is a requirement unless you have found and not reported a solution to the free-rider problem that others have not. Your upscale boutique-level health care is meanwhile not prohibited or restrained by PPACA at all. The general public won't be getting any, just as they don't get any now.
There are a number of doctors offering $50 a month plans for unlimited patient visits, testing, and actual doctor to patent time; which is available to the general public. The number is actually up 30% since last year too.
Again then why haven't you? What has kept you from learning, given all this interest you have? So let's take a quick peak. According to right-wingers, federal workers have the ne plus ultra cushy public sector retirement system. And according to the 2010 OPM Annual Report on the state of that system, total assets will continue to grow throughout the 70-year term of its projections, ultimately reaching a level of more than four times annual federal payroll, or about nineteen times the level of annual benefit payments. Sound like it's teetering on the brink to you?

"According to the Public Fund Survey of 126 state and local pension plans, which account for about 85 percent of pension assets and participants in state and local pension plans in the United States, those plans held roughly $2.6 trillion in financial assets in 2009 but had about $3.3 trillion in liabilities for future pension payments. Thus, those assets covered less than 80 percent of liabilities, and unfunded liabilities (the amount by which liabilities exceed assets) amounted to roughly $0.7 trillion. That share of liabilities covered by assets in 2009 was the lowest percentage in the past 20 years. By comparison, the amount of state and local governments' debt that was outstanding at the end of 2009 was $2.4 trillion.

That estimate of unfunded liabilities is calculated on the basis of actuarial guidelines currently followed by state and local governments. Another approach for measuring pension assets and liabilities, which more fully accounts for the costs that pension obligations pose for taxpayers, yields a much larger estimate of unfunded liabilities for those plans in 2009—between $2 trillion and $3 trillion." CBO 2011.

Speaking of free-riders, the non-union southern auto plants simply piggyback their wages and benefits on UAW contracts. They have even boasted about it on their websites. If they didn't march along just a step or two behind what the UAW negotiates, they would lose significant portions of their workforce to better paying union shops. The UAW is simply negotiating here on behalf of tens of thousands of piker-workers who don't pay a dime in dues.
Well, they have to pay higher wages, or they would have too high of an employee turnover compared to the other companies. But competition for workers causes wages to rise, unions or not.
Apples versus oranges? How many people have worked at the southern plants long enough to reach retirement? I can tell you that in 2010 it was 3,200 for Honda. What do you think GM's number would look like?
A lot more. I was saying I like Toyota's retirement plans better, regardless of "how many retirees" each has at the moment. Besides, actually having less retirees would be more expensive in an IRA type investment scheme, because the company is paying along the way.
I doubt you would have understood a single word Lucas was saying if it was among the first things you had learned. There has also been a great deal of development simply in terms of processing power since 1976. Dynamic general equilibrium models today reach rather deeply into assorted sticky and frictional factors as well as into the exogenous world. Horses of a different color from what Lucas was considering. It remains true in any case that micro and macro are different worlds and that deadweight loss is an element of the former.
Surely they take microlevel analysis into the picture?
Your original claims were that land is not variable and cannot expand over time, and further that its value cannot be negatively distorted by taxes, being derived solely from natural resources and the surrounding community. None of these assumptions can be upheld. If these are the rationale behind any sort of plan at all, then that plan is not well supported at all.
Well I mean't the area of land doesn't expand over time. Well it does, but only over millions of years.

We tax the value of property. We do that at the level that assessors deem the property of whatever sort likely to fetch if it were to be offered for sale. Assays and mining surveys do not enter into that process. Significant numbers of annual appeals do enter into it. The objection isn't in any case raised as to the capacity of imposing a national land tax, merely as to the justiification, practicality, and wisdom of it.
Since you're the expert, perhaps you could point out for me where the "economic effects" section is wrong.
Land value tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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