View Poll Results: Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

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Thread: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

  1. #81
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who passed credit laws that allowed the existence and expansion of Derivatives so that "fair" housing goals could be met? Yes, they did have something to do with that one.
    I'll say! And who was it that exempted OTC derivatives from direct regulation under the Commodities Exchange Act to begin with? And who beat back the 1998 attempt to bring them back under CFTC oversight? Hint: It was Republicans in both cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who created the EPA and who support it today? No.
    The EPA was created under Nixon. He opposed it, but once Congress passed it, he took its mission as something he was obligated to support.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it the Reps who supported Unions? NO.
    Quite so. Republicans believe that it is the God-given right of thousands of stockholders to be represented at the bargaining table by a handful of selected experts, but that if workers do the same thing, it is the work of Satan.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who changed medical law not only allowing the uninsured to use private hospitals but forced private medical facilities to accept non-paying patients? No.
    "Acceptance" in this case means determining whether an indigent patient is suffering from a life-threatening emergency medical condition. If so, the hospital must stabilize the patient before transferring him or her elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who negotiated and had control of the Senate when NAFTA and South Korean Free trade treaties were put in place and ratified? No. Although, I think a fair number of them did still support them.
    NAFTA negotiated 1986-1992. Signed by Bush-41 in December 1992. Passed in the House in November 1993, 234-200, with 132 Repuiblicans voting in favor. Passed in the Senate in December 1993, 61-38, with 34 Republicans voting in favor.

    US-Korea Free Trade Agreement negotiated 2006-2007. Signed by Bush-43 in June 2007. Some provisions renegotiated 2011. Passed the House in Ocober 2011, 278-151, with 219 Republicans voting in favor. Passed the Senate in October 2011, 83-15, with 45 of 46 Republicans voting in favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    You have made the assertion that our current "mess" was entirely caused by Reps, now support that stance.
    In present-day usage, the term "current mess" typcially refers to the Great Biush Recession and its difficult aftermath. Despite the phony memes manufactured by the right-wing disinformation media, the genesis of that calamity was all Republicans all the time.

    Speaking of assertions, you have made a great many here that ranged from entirely false to utterly baseless. On what grounds do you purport to question the claims of others?

  2. #82
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    The last budget deficit under Bush and with Rep control of Congress was around $162 Billion, the next year, the year Dems took control of Congress, it jumped to over $400 Billion.
    More bunk. The last budget that Bush oversaw with a Republican Congress was that for FY 2006. The deficit was $248.2 billion. Knowing that they were going to be pasted at the polls in November 2006, Congressional Republicans passed only the DOD and DHS approrpriations bills for FY 2007 and dumped the rest as calendar-cloggers onto the new Democratic Congress. It was they who then did the work to trim the deficit to $160.7 billion.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    More bunk. The last budget that Bush oversaw with a Republican Congress was that for FY 2006. The deficit was $248.2 billion. Knowing that they were going to be pasted at the polls in November 2006, Congressional Republicans passed only the DOD and DHS approrpriations bills for FY 2007 and dumped the rest as calendar-cloggers onto the new Democratic Congress. It was they who then did the work to trim the deficit to $160.7 billion.
    Budget for fiscal year 2007 was approved by congress and signed by G.W. Bush, Feb 6, 2006. FDsys - Browse BUDGET
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Of course its both. Remember...this was all set in motion when the 'super-committee' failed to come up with an greed upon set of budget cuts.
    No, this was all set in motion by the idiotic hostage-release agreement that was negotiated in the waning hours before US borrowing authority expired in the summer of 2011. That's where the idiotic notion of a "Select Committee" came from, along with the also idiotic follow-ons that were to occur if the Select Committee failed to do what it was told to do, which of course it did not even come close to doing. These draconian consequences were supposed to act as an incentive to the Committee and then to Congress in taking the necessary actions. Tell that to Grover Norquist. The Republicans simply don't care. They weren't voting for any sort of tax increases then (resulting in the S&P debt downgrade) and they aren't now either, even when their own leaders propose them.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Congress cant pass a basic operating budget...
    Congress never does that. The President submits an annual budget. Using that as a blueprint, Congress passes a set of twelve authorization and appropriations bills. Perhaps you are thinking of a CR (continuing resolution) which is not a budget but which provides emergency funding to the government under the terms of the most recently enacted appropriations. Or perhaps it is omnibus spending bills that have thrown you off. Omnibus bills are a budget-equivalent in that they take many or all of the regular appropriations bills and roll them up into one big piece of legislation. The Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009 would have been an example. It carried the actual FY 2009 appropriations for everyone but DOD, DHS, and DVA in one single package.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    ...and what spending legislation they DO manage to pass always heaps on more debt and deficit spending.
    A pretty obvious outcome when real federal receipts are still less than 90% of what they were five years ago. More to the point, you need to give up on the notion of ever seeing a balanced budget again in your lifetime. It simply isn't going to happen.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    No, this was all set in motion by the idiotic hostage-release agreement that was negotiated in the waning hours before US borrowing authority expired in the summer of 2011. That's where the idiotic notion of a "Select Committee" came from, along with the also idiotic follow-ons that were to occur if the Select Committee failed to do what it was told to do, which of course it did not even come close to doing. These draconian consequences were supposed to act as an incentive to the Committee and then to Congress in taking the necessary actions. Tell that to Grover Norquist. The Republicans simply don't care. They weren't voting for any sort of tax increases then (resulting in the S&P debt downgrade) and they aren't now either, even when their own leaders propose them.


    Congress never does that. The President submits an annual budget. Using that as a blueprint, Congress passes a set of twelve authorization and appropriations bills. Perhaps you are thinking of a CR (continuing resolution) which is not a budget but which provides emergency funding to the government under the terms of the most recently enacted appropriations. Or perhaps it is omnibus spending bills that have thrown you off. Omnibus bills are a budget-equivalent in that they take many or all of the regular appropriations bills and roll them up into one big piece of legislation. The Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009 would have been an example. It carried the actual FY 2009 appropriations for everyone but DOD, DHS, and DVA in one single package.


    A pretty obvious outcome when real federal receipts are still less than 90% of what they were five years ago. More to the point, you need to give up on the notion of ever seeing a balanced budget again in your lifetime. It simply isn't going to happen.

    The dems have held the senate and white house for 4 years...they held the house and senate for 6 years. The senate cant so much as come to the table let alone pass a budget. And to you its all the republicans fault. You are such a mindless partisan ****.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by shiang View Post
    Well it seem all but certain that we'll run over the fiscal cliff. Meaning the Government will be shut down and Bush tax cuts will expire for everyone.

    Obama and the Dems want Bush tax cuts to expire for the 250k+ brackets (starting at around 3% increase for 250k up to 4.5% for 388k) and raise Capital gains tax from 15 to 20%. This by itself will cut deficit spending by over 10%.

    Boehner wants only people making 1 mill + to have Bush tax cuts expire. As I have stated in a previous post (early in the general elections) that this sounds nice but simply will not raise significant revenue. Boehner's proposal, by the way, is shunned by help the wealthy Republicans.

    Republicans want either

    1.No tax changes

    or

    2.Secretly want to raise taxes for all Americans and for political reasons can't say that. Going over the fiscal cliff would do that by default. On the bright side, in the short run deficit will decrease by around 20%. On the down side, a weaker middle class would almost certainly mean a slower economy. Much more so than tax hikes only on the wealthy.


    Who do you think will get the most blame when the Government fails to pass a budget plan for the future in time?
    Just like they did last time, republicans will get the blame.
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Get a grip. There was support across the board and around the world for reprisal against Afghanistan after 9/11. It was a unique moment of national and international solidarity. Also an opportunity that Bush of course promptly bobbled. Having won decisively in Afghanistan, Bush of course gave the victory right back to the Taliban by rushing off to Iraq for no reason at all. There was active opposition to that. The largest protests in world history were in fact launched against that dreaful and misbegotten idea. But The Decider decided to push ahead anyway, knowing full well that the arguments of his critics and detractors were correct.

    The Tax Cuts for the Rich were meanwhile the economic centerpiece of Bush's domestic policies. They were also a dismal failure, leading the Fed to rush in as backstop in 2002, promising to keep interest rates at 1% or below until economic activity eventually picked up. These of course were important early steps toward the credit crisis and the resulting Great Bush Recession. The tax cuts were passed under reconciliation in June 2001. They passed the House by a margin of 240-154, with all 211 Republicans who voted being in favor. They passed the Senate by a margin of 58-33 with all Republicans voting except McCain and Chaffee being in favor.
    The tax cuts were only for the Rich? Also, the Cuts were put in place before we were attacked. Who knows what would of happened if we hadn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The House was under Republican control from 1995 to 2007. This claim lacks any element of either factitude or truthiness.
    You are correct, I made a mistake, it was the Senate that the Dems controlled in 2001-2002.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    That's not such a wondrous accomplishment since it was only $5.7 trillion when he started.
    The country was attacked by an enemy which Clinton refused to deal with. The military was in dismal shape. During Clinton, the military had been drastically cut of Personnel, however, number of squadrons, divisions and other "fighting" units were barely touched, forcing greater utilization rates of remaining personnel. In 2000, the DoD was funded at a staggering $260.8, with just the maintenance cost for the Air Force alone rose to over $100 Billion in the mid 90's.

    So no kidding he had to spend a lot to even get existing equipment back working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The deficits and debt from FY 2009 forward were created by the Great Bush Recession, not by Obama.
    Prove that it is "Bush's Great Recession". The Nature and the Origin of the Subprime Mortgage Crisis Clearly the problem started long before Bush took office. Problems were identified and prediction of bailouts being needed in the future were made in 1999, before Bush even ran for office.

    You can hold that line as long as you wish. But since taking office, yes, approximately $1 Billion went to a stimulus program. Where did the rest go? And even the stimulus had unreasonable political ties in it so some states necessarily rejected it. Some went to the wars, but nowhere near the remaining sum.

    By all means, lets see you tie all nearly $7 Trillion in spending to Bush era programs or problems created solely under the Bush administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    You're against Fair Housing? And Bush and the Republicans most certainly did boost low-income housing goals while removing 12-to-1 leverage limits for the Big Five Wall Street investment banks, the people who were busy lining their own pockets by creating the credit crisis. Though he failed in his first few attempts, Bush finally did succeed in driving down the market share of Fannie and Freddie as mortgage securitizers.
    That depends on how you want to define "fair". If they couldn't buy it under previous rules, then the rules should of never been changed. Want a house? Earn it. Don't earn enough, then make yourself more valuable, otherwise STFU.

    I also never said Bush/Republicans didn't help it along and they certainly didn't stop it. But, they were not the originators of the crises.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    History tells us that increases in taxes simply corresponds with increases in spending, and there's no reason to believe that won't be the case here.
    It's not history, but old wives' tales that tell you that. LBJ's 10% tax surcharge in 1968 was concurrent with an outright decline in real spending. Clinton's tax increase in 1993 was also associated with an outright decline, and Bush's in 1990 was at least associated with a decline in the rate of growth of real spending. In fact, the only real culprit on this front since WWII has been Ronald Reagan with his 1982-87 tax increases, all but the last of which were associated with increases in spending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    As pointed out by the OP, increasing the taxes on those over $250k will fail to deal with 90% of our deficit spending.
    So what? Are you saying that if you had run out of gas by the side of the road and a stranger with a gas can pulled over and offered to help, you would send him on hios way because his crummy two-gallon gas can wouldn't be enough for a fill-up? It isn't written anywhere that a step in the right direction needs to get you all the way to your destination in order to be worthwhile. In fact, ending the tax cuts for those over $250K offers the highest ratio of fiscal benefit to economic cost of any option on the table. If you can't accept that one, you'll really have trouble justifying any of the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    We may arguably have a revenue problem, but that problem is miniscule next to our psending problem.
    We don't have a spending problem. Spending -- even with all the emergency responses to the Great Bush Recession -- is in line with historical standards. What we have here is all but exclusively a revenue problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However, this isn't ABOUT solving problems...it's about playing politics, and hte Democrats see a political advantage here so they're pushing it not because it's what's "best for the country" but because they believe it's what's best for Democratic electoral efforts. Unfortunatley, what ACTUALLY needs to happen isn't good for either sides electoral efforts, which is whyu it won't get done and we will continue to have this BS
    The election was in November. There isn't one in January. Meanwhile, everyone spins everything while on camera because they want to influence public opinion in their favor and they know that majorities get all their information -- good or bad -- from the boob tube. Politicians get handed the message and are told to stay on it. This is all just Sound Bite Creationism 101. Don't pay so much attention to it.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Budget for fiscal year 2007 was approved by congress and signed by G.W. Bush, Feb 6, 2006.
    Come on. That's the date the FY 2007 Budget was first SUBMITTED to Congress. Nobody on The Hill had seen a single page of it prior to that.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The dems have held the senate and white house for 4 years...they held the house and senate for 6 years.
    Democrats have now held the Senate for at least 8 years (2007-2015) and the White House for at least 8 years (2009-2017). They controlled the House between 2007 and 2011, which is 4 years. So you got all of them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The senate cant so much as come to the table let alone pass a budget.
    Budgets aren't passed or even voted on in Congress -- appropriations bills are.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    And to you its all the republicans fault. You are such a mindless partisan ****.
    The fiscal cliff was authored by "Or Else" TEA Party types as part of a weak-kneed agreement to end the debt limit hostage-taking crisis in July 2011. Just facts. It was all supposed to be so scary that either the Select Committee or Congress would be driven to act. No one thought the cliff could actually come into play. Yet another hapless miscalculation by the right-wing.

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