View Poll Results: Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

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  • Democrats

    14 16.87%
  • Republicans

    45 54.22%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    24 28.92%
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Thread: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

  1. #71
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by shiang View Post
    Who do you think will get the most blame when the Government fails to pass a budget plan for the future in time?
    The government will.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Republicans will get the blame, Obama will use his inaugural and SOTU Address to blame them, the media can't wait to run that story 24/7, and Republicans will be left in the unenviable position of being unable to even defend themselves without looking like whiners......


    ......for about..... 9 months. Remember how incredibly unpopular Obamacare was? How it was a tidal wave, a shellacking, and Obama was sure to lose over it? Yeah. People move on.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Of course its both. Remember...this was all set in motion when the 'super-committee' failed to come up with an greed upon set of budget cuts. Congress cant pass a basic operating budget and what spending legislation they DO manage to pass always heaps on more debt and deficit spending. Oh...and lets not forget...back in November a whole lot of people in this country reelected the same crop of clowns as their 'representatives'. Lets not ignore their responsibility as well.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. Its not a surplus, its money that has not yet be distributed.
    Receipts minus outlays equals surplus. Since the revisions of 1983, SS has built up more than $2.7 trillion worth of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    A lot of that money has been paid by workers under the age of 40, not current or soon to be retirees. It'll be completely distributed by 2034, at which point all of those 40 & unders (now around 60) who have been carrying a majority of the load for the last 30 will have to accept reduced benefits right as they are about to retire.
    Gee, that's exactly the situation the boomers (then aged 19-37) faced back in 1983. They resolved it by raising taxes on themselves. Can anybody here take a hint?

    As for your 2034 number, it's bunk. First of all, the offcial number is 2035, and second of all, it is based on severey pessimistic assumptions. It has only been during the "bad years" of the Great Bush Recession that the projections of the SS trustees have been even close to realistic. Consider that in 1997, they projected the SSTF would be exhausted in 2029. In 2007, they projected it would be exhausted in 2042. So ten years went by (about evenly divided between strong years under Clinton and weaker ones under Bush), but not only did exhaustion fail to get ten years closer, it got three years further away, 35 years to 32. That's a good measure of how distorted the SS trustees reports are. To be sure, all projections are and should be done to the pessimistic side, but SS (and Medicare) have taken things to unjustified extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    But SS alone isn't the problem. Medicare + public employee pensions are also a ticking timebomb, and the three combined are going to cause serious problems unless action is taken.
    Drop the "ticking timebomb" nonsense if you want serious people to take you seriously. All of Medicare's problems arise within the hopelessly inefficient, for-profit, fee-for-service health care system that it is plugged into. PPACA made a long overdue start at redefining our health care financing systems, but while it extended the Part-A actuarial projections by about a decade, there is a lot of work left to be done.

    As for allegations of a looming public sector pension crisis, the whole idea is a corporate, hard-right invention aimed at the trained seals. The argument here is basically that since lack of union protections among other things allowed corporations to plunder and then destroy private sector pension systems, public sector systems now seem attractive by comparison, so to be fair, we'd really better destroy those as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    2. And in your 40 years, you've never heard of deadweight loss?
    From your experience in economics thus far, do you consider dead-wieght loss to be a micro effect or a macro effect? How about national tax and revenue sysems?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    But, I'm in favor of a national property tax based solely on land value before improvements.
    You will change your mind.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Republicans will get more of the blame, because they've done a worse job at pushing their spin of the message in recent times and because by and large the media's template on this issue is that it's the Republicans.

    In reality, it's both. While increasing revenues through taxes, and even flat out raising taxes on some people, may very well be PART of the solution it absolutely isn't the first part of the solution nor is it the most important part of the solution. History tells us that increases in taxes simply corresponds with increases in spending, and there's no reason to believe that won't be the case here. Especially considering the fact that it's now being focused singularly on tax hikes. As pointed out by the OP, increasing the taxes on those over $250k will fail to deal with 90% of our deficit spending.

    We may arguably have a revenue problem, but that problem is miniscule next to our psending problem. However, this isn't ABOUT solving problems...it's about playing politics, and hte Democrats see a political advantage here so they're pushing it not because it's what's "best for the country" but because they believe it's what's best for Democratic electoral efforts. Unfortunatley, what ACTUALLY needs to happen isn't good for either sides electoral efforts, which is whyu it won't get done and we will continue to have this BS

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The retirement age DOES have to go up because of the baby boomer generation. There are SO many retiring and NOT enough younger people working. The baby boomer generation is going to eat up SS, and it will probably be gone by the time I retire, if I ever get to.
    Don't blame us, if you vote for politicians who are irresponsible, you get what you get.
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by shiang View Post
    Well it seem all but certain that we'll run over the fiscal cliff. Meaning the Government will be shut down and Bush tax cuts will expire for everyone.

    Obama and the Dems want Bush tax cuts to expire for the 250k+ brackets (starting at around 3% increase for 250k up to 4.5% for 388k) and raise Capital gains tax from 15 to 20%. This by itself will cut deficit spending by over 10%.

    Boehner wants only people making 1 mill + to have Bush tax cuts expire. As I have stated in a previous post (early in the general elections) that this sounds nice but simply will not raise significant revenue. Boehner's proposal, by the way, is shunned by help the wealthy Republicans.

    Republicans want either

    1.No tax changes

    or

    2.Secretly want to raise taxes for all Americans and for political reasons can't say that. Going over the fiscal cliff would do that by default. On the bright side, in the short run deficit will decrease by around 20%. On the down side, a weaker middle class would almost certainly mean a slower economy. Much more so than tax hikes only on the wealthy.


    Who do you think will get the most blame when the Government fails to pass a budget plan for the future in time?
    Interesting. You pose the question, then go on to basically blame Republicans.

    However, my answer is simple: NOBODY will take responsibility for the 'fiscal cliff' and it will be the American citizens - taxpayers - in our entirety that will PAY THE PRICE for our collective governments irresponsibility in managing funds.
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice....shame on me.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    It hasn't yet.
    Hard to see how it ever will, since Social Security does not have an authority to spend beyond the level of resources directly available to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    and that article only describes the problem with an OPTIONAL flat tax
    Flat taxes are merely further schemes to remove tax burden from the wealthy and dump it on the middle and lower classes. The rest is just window-dressing. If you are aware of ANY viable flat tax plan, please provide some reference to it.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    You are obviously not very well informed
    Nixon created th EPA and Reagan signed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act that forbid hospiutals from denying treatment of the sick and injured
    And lastly it was Reagan who first proposed NAFTA and HW Bush signed the treaty himself.
    I stand corrected.

    However, a President alone does not pass a law or even a treaty. Check the record of who had majorities in congress at the times. Your corrections only add a share of the blame, it doesn't let the Dems entirely off the hook. Since I had already laid some of the blame on Reps, this just adds to their list and their share.

    It does not however, in any way, change my argument/stance that both parties had a role in it, not just one. Thank you for the factual corrections and helping to strengthen/clarify my stance.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Can you actually point to and logically link any legislation passed by only by republicans that actually contributed to or caused the economic downturn, or for that matter, the majority of the debt?
    Get a grip. There was support across the board and around the world for reprisal against Afghanistan after 9/11. It was a unique moment of national and international solidarity. Also an opportunity that Bush of course promptly bobbled. Having won decisively in Afghanistan, Bush of course gave the victory right back to the Taliban by rushing off to Iraq for no reason at all. There was active opposition to that. The largest protests in world history were in fact launched against that dreaful and misbegotten idea. But The Decider decided to push ahead anyway, knowing full well that the arguments of his critics and detractors were correct.

    The Tax Cuts for the Rich were meanwhile the economic centerpiece of Bush's domestic policies. They were also a dismal failure, leading the Fed to rush in as backstop in 2002, promising to keep interest rates at 1% or below until economic activity eventually picked up. These of course were important early steps toward the credit crisis and the resulting Great Bush Recession. The tax cuts were passed under reconciliation in June 2001. They passed the House by a margin of 240-154, with all 211 Republicans who voted being in favor. They passed the Senate by a margin of 58-33 with all Republicans voting except McCain and Chaffee being in favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    You might say the wars, but then, a Dem controlled House voted for them.
    The House was under Republican control from 1995 to 2007. This claim lacks any element of either factitude or truthiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Also, The debt rose less than 5 Trillion during the 8 years of President G.W. Bush.
    That's not such a wondrous accomplishment since it was only $5.7 trillion when he started.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    It has risen almost 7 Trillion under Obama.
    The deficits and debt from FY 2009 forward were created by the Great Bush Recession, not by Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Obama cannot even use the excuse of the Wars, we all but pulled out of Iraq around two years ago.
    We are out of Iraq because of a plan then-Senator Obama put forward to Prime Minister Maliki in the summer of 2008, and because then-and-still-President Obama implemented the planned withdrawal flawlessly beginning in early 2009, thus ending perhaps the most disgraceful chapter of baseless foreign adventurism in US history.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who introduced and have continued to support Welfare? NO.
    The current structure of our welfare system was set up under the Welfare and Medicaid Reform Act of 1996. House Republicans voted for it by a margin of 230-2. Senate Republicans voted for it by a margin of 53-0.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Was it Reps who introduced the Fair Housing act and amendments to it? NO. Was it Reps who supported Low income housing goals and allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to use sub-prime mortgages to meet those goals? No.
    You're against Fair Housing? And Bush and the Republicans most certainly did boost low-income housing goals while removing 12-to-1 leverage limits for the Big Five Wall Street investment banks, the people who were busy lining their own pockets by creating the credit crisis. Though he failed in his first few attempts, Bush finally did succeed in driving down the market share of Fannie and Freddie as mortgage securitizers.

    Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif-gse_market_share-jpg

    That red line is simply the Great Bush Recession happening.

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