View Poll Results: Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

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  • Democrats

    14 16.87%
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    45 54.22%
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    24 28.92%
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Thread: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

  1. #61
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I'll take the blame. We need to go over the fiscal misnomer. everybody needs to pay more and the government needs to spend less. this is the only way that will happen politically. I just wish the cuts and the tax increases across the board were larger.
    I don't trust the government to stop spending money foolishly AT ALL. I am very much against raising anyone's taxes until the government can show that they can spend money WISELY. I'm sick and tired of the government collecting ALL the money that they do with taxes (income, sales, estate, death, etc., etc.), and still they cry poverty. Our government is too big and too fat and too greedy with other people's money.

    I want to add to this and say that in another post I made in another thread, I included a link to the site below which tells us that our federal government is taking in about 200 billion dollars per MONTH!!!

    http://webster.house.gov/legislation/faqpsa.htm
    Last edited by ChrisL; 12-24-12 at 07:58 PM.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    It isn't by definition, but but most people do collect more in benefits than what they have paid in as premiums. Those are nominal dollars of course. There is meanwhile that $2.7 trillion surpluis still sitting on the books. People paid to put that there.


    All of my degrees are in economics, and I am at the back end of a (rather lucrative) 40+ year career as a practicing professional in that very field. What have you been up to?
    1. Its not a surplus, its money that has not yet be distributed. A lot of that money has been paid by workers under the age of 40, not current or soon to be retirees. It'll be completely distributed by 2034, at which point all of those 40 & unders (now around 60) who have been carrying a majority of the load for the last 30 will have to accept reduced benefits right as they are about to retire.

    But SS alone isn't the problem. Medicare + public employee pensions are also a ticking timebomb, and the three combined are going to cause serious problems unless action is taken.

    2. And in your 40 years, you've never heard of deadweight loss?

    But, I'm in favor of a national property tax based solely on land value before improvements. One of my professors explained it to me like this. You have three factors which go into the economy. 1. Natural resources 2. Labor 3. Investment. Two of those three values are variable, can expand infinitely (long term), and its value can be negatively distorted by taxes. Land on the other hand is not variable, cannot expand over time (at least to my knowledge) and its value cannot be negatively distorted by taxes. Land derives its value solely from natural resources, and the surrounding community. So community developments are paid for by those who see the greatest increase in property values, and natural resources are partially owned by the public, rather than rent seekers.

  3. #63
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Unless Obama + Dems are willing to make changes to entitlements, including changing the retirement age, I cannot take any of their proposals seriously.

    Besides, the obvious point I think Dems are missing is that higher taxes is not the solution. We'd actually raise more revenue if we switched to a flat tax system, or a non-income tax system, such as a national property tax. It would also cost less to regulate, taxpayers wouldn't have to pay as much in tax-filing services, and the economic dead-weight loss would be far less.
    SS has not contributed one nickle to the nations debt so stop with that. Obama has already proposed cuts and even put SS on the table. The Republicans are at fault here just like with the debt ceiling Personally I hope Obama calls their bluff because I willing to bet the country will see the Republicans for what they really are and it isnt patriots. They created the mess we are in.

    The flat tax will never work and is a joke

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-10272011.html

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. Its not a surplus, its money that has not yet be distributed. A lot of that money has been paid by workers under the age of 40, not current or soon to be retirees. It'll be completely distributed by 2034, at which point all of those 40 & unders (now around 60) who have been carrying a majority of the load for the last 30 will have to accept reduced benefits right as they are about to retire.

    But SS alone isn't the problem. Medicare + public employee pensions are also a ticking timebomb, and the three combined are going to cause serious problems unless action is taken.

    2. And in your 40 years, you've never heard of deadweight loss?

    But, I'm in favor of a national property tax based solely on land value before improvements. One of my professors explained it to me like this. You have three factors which go into the economy. 1. Natural resources 2. Labor 3. Investment. Two of those three values are variable, can expand infinitely (long term), and its value can be negatively distorted by taxes. Land on the other hand is not variable, cannot expand over time (at least to my knowledge) and its value cannot be negatively distorted by taxes. Land derives its value solely from natural resources, and the surrounding community. So community developments are paid for by those who see the greatest increase in property values, and natural resources are partially owned by the public, rather than rent seekers.
    So the answer to our revenue problems is abandoning the income tax altogether? At a time when income maldistribution is higher than before the Great Depression?
    That would be disasterous in every way. Like David Stockton says, we blew it with those large tax cuts in the top brackets starting when he was budget director for Reagan. We didn't get the boost in growth that was promised and we allowed the top 5% to quintuple their net worths to a mind boggling $40 TRILLION in 30 years. Wealth growth like that in only 5% of the population is unsustainable. And now the Govt. is in debt. We need a return to the more progressive rates that have succeeded in the past to encourage growth in all income groups. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Revenue returns to a more realistic 18 to 20% of GDP insted of 14% and maldistribution of wealth is diminished.
    The alternative is Stocktons suggested wealth tax on those 5% which would raise enough to cut our debt in half but is unnecessary since paying off our debt is not really all that worthwhile or even smart.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So the answer to our revenue problems is abandoning the income tax altogether? At a time when income maldistribution is higher than before the Great Depression?
    That would be disasterous in every way. Like David Stockton says, we blew it with those large tax cuts in the top brackets starting when he was budget director for Reagan. We didn't get the boost in growth that was promised and we allowed the top 5% to quintuple their net worths to a mind boggling $40 TRILLION in 30 years. Wealth growth like that in only 5% of the population is unsustainable. And now the Govt. is in debt. We need a return to the more progressive rates that have succeeded in the past to encourage growth in all income groups. This kills 2 birds with one stone. Revenue returns to a more realistic 18 to 20% of GDP insted of 14% and maldistribution of wealth is diminished.
    The alternative is Stocktons suggested wealth tax on those 5% which would raise enough to cut our debt in half but is unnecessary since paying off our debt is not really all that worthwhile or even smart.
    Fallacy of misleading vividness.


    A property tax would be naturally much more progressive than an income tax. It also reduces rent seeking and land hoarding, which would vastly decrease the number of non-chronic homeless (recent evictees).

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by TaraAnne View Post
    SS has not contributed one nickle to the nations debt so stop with that. Obama has already proposed cuts and even put SS on the table. The Republicans are at fault here just like with the debt ceiling Personally I hope Obama calls their bluff because I willing to bet the country will see the Republicans for what they really are and it isnt patriots. They created the mess we are in.

    The flat tax will never work and is a joke

    Bloomberg View: Why a Flat Tax Won
    It hasn't yet.


    and that article only describes the problem with an OPTIONAL flat tax

    Did you even read it?
    Last edited by ReformCollege; 12-25-12 at 08:12 AM.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by TaraAnne View Post
    SS has not contributed one nickle to the nations debt so stop with that. Obama has already proposed cuts and even put SS on the table. The Republicans are at fault here just like with the debt ceiling Personally I hope Obama calls their bluff because I willing to bet the country will see the Republicans for what they really are and it isnt patriots. They created the mess we are in.

    The flat tax will never work and is a joke

    Bloomberg View: Why a Flat Tax Won
    Can you actually point to and logically link any legislation passed by only by republicans that actually contributed to or caused the economic downturn, or for that matter, the majority of the debt?

    You might say the wars, but then, a Dem controlled House voted for them. Also, The debt rose less than 5 Trillion during the 8 years of President G.W. Bush. It has risen almost 7 Trillion under Obama. Obama cannot even use the excuse of the Wars, we all but pulled out of Iraq around two years ago.

    Was it Reps who introduced and have continued to support Welfare? NO.

    Was it Reps who introduced the Fair Housing act and amendments to it? NO. Was it Reps who supported Low income housing goals and allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to use sub-prime mortgages to meet those goals? No. Was it Reps who passed credit laws that allowed the existence and expansion of Derivatives so that "fair" housing goals could be met? Yes, they did have something to do with that one. Was it Reps who pushed "privacy" in credit agencies and forced the use of credit agencies? I'm not totally clear on this one, They may indeed of had a hand in it.

    Was it Reps who created the EPA and who support it today? No.

    Was it the Reps who supported Unions? NO.

    Was it Reps who changed medical law not only allowing the uninsured to use private hospitals but forced private medical facilities to accept non-paying patients? No.

    Was it Reps who negotiated and had control of the Senate when NAFTA and South Korean Free trade treaties were put in place and ratified? No. Although, I think a fair number of them did still support them.

    You have made the assertion that our current "mess" was entirely caused by Reps, now support that stance.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Can you actually point to and logically link any legislation passed by only by republicans that actually contributed to or caused the economic downturn, or for that matter, the majority of the debt?

    You might say the wars, but then, a Dem controlled House voted for them. Also, The debt rose less than 5 Trillion during the 8 years of President G.W. Bush. It has risen almost 7 Trillion under Obama. Obama cannot even use the excuse of the Wars, we all but pulled out of Iraq around two years ago.

    Was it Reps who introduced and have continued to support Welfare? NO.

    Was it Reps who introduced the Fair Housing act and amendments to it? NO. Was it Reps who supported Low income housing goals and allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to use sub-prime mortgages to meet those goals? No. Was it Reps who passed credit laws that allowed the existence and expansion of Derivatives so that "fair" housing goals could be met? Yes, they did have something to do with that one. Was it Reps who pushed "privacy" in credit agencies and forced the use of credit agencies? I'm not totally clear on this one, They may indeed of had a hand in it.

    Was it Reps who created the EPA and who support it today? No.

    Was it the Reps who supported Unions? NO.

    Was it Reps who changed medical law not only allowing the uninsured to use private hospitals but forced private medical facilities to accept non-paying patients? No.

    Was it Reps who negotiated and had control of the Senate when NAFTA and South Korean Free trade treaties were put in place and ratified? No. Although, I think a fair number of them did still support them.

    You have made the assertion that our current "mess" was entirely caused by Reps, now support that stance.
    You are obviously not very well informed
    Nixon created th EPA and Reagan signed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act that forbid hospiutals from denying treatment of the sick and injured
    And lastly it was Reagan who first proposed NAFTA and HW Bush signed the treaty himself.

    Bush fought 2 wars and cut taxes twice while doing it. He increased the Federal payroll more than any previous President too. Then the economy crashed further reducing revenue. Then there was the prescription drug benefit which was also unpaid for. Blamimg Obama for the high deficits is foolish, he has increased Govt. spending less than any modern President.
    WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Of all the falsehoods told about President Barack Obama, the biggest whopper is the one about his reckless spending spree.

    As would-be president Mitt Romney tells it: “I will lead us out of this debt and spending inferno.”

    Almost everyone believes that Obama has presided over a massive increase in federal spending, an “inferno” of spending that threatens our jobs, our businesses and our children’s future. Even Democrats seem to think it’s true.

    But it didn’t happen. Although there was a big stimulus bill under Obama, federal spending is rising at the slowest pace since Dwight Eisenhower brought the Korean War to an end in the 1950s.
    Obama spending binge never happened - MarketWatch
    Last edited by iguanaman; 12-25-12 at 01:04 PM.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    I'm sure the Media will do its best to blame Republicans.
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Bush fought 2 wars and cut taxes twice while doing it. He increased the Federal payroll more than any previous President too. Then the economy crashed further reducing revenue. Then there was the prescription drug benefit which was also unpaid for. Blamimg Obama for the high deficits is foolish, he has increased Govt. spending less than any modern President.
    Obama spending binge never happened - MarketWatch
    Did I blame only Obama? No. Did I only blame Dems? No.

    The last budget deficit under Bush and with Rep control of Congress was around $162 Billion, the next year, the year Dems took control of Congress, it jumped to over $400 Billion.

    One of the things I was pointing out is that some of our problems go back decades and while some want to only blame Reps, it simply is not true. You can no more blame everything on Obama than you can on G.W. Bush. I even pointed out that not all contributing factors can be blamed on a single party.

    Do I believe that the Dems have had more to do with it? Yes. But the only ones that contributed? No. However, if you want to lay blame, you have to look at all factors that contribute and in the last 50 Years, the Rep have had the Presidency and Majority in both Houses for only 4 of those 50 years. And only 6 Years since FDR, over 80 years total. If you or anyone else thinks that all of our current problems and the current mess was totally created in those 4 out of the last 50 years, you are too much of a fool to take any of your arguments seriously.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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