View Poll Results: Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

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  • Democrats

    14 16.87%
  • Republicans

    45 54.22%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    24 28.92%
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Thread: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

  1. #41
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I wasn't being dishonest about it. I'm not representing actual numbers, and I was talking hypothetically using values corrected for inflation. I think you'll agree with what I have to say in response, but I'm still going to put it out there. But, I'll respond to your problem with two points.

    1. SS is by definition a Ponzi scheme (new entrees pay for departees, only works until the money runs out) The first SS recipient paid just $44 in taxes, and collected $20,993 in benefits.
    2. the payouts are formulated based on a life expectancy of 70 years, and a worker to recipient ratio of 16 to 1.

    Basically, current retirees are getting far more than they paid into for SS, and they expect my generation to pay more in taxes and collect lower benefits so they can maintain their good deal. I say screw that.
    Now we are getting to the crux of the real SS issue. More retirees per worker paying in, paying for more years of benefits per retiree and more retirees living long enough to get any benefits at all. Any actuary will tell you that more contributions are needed and/or less benefits may be paid out. Since we can't shoot retirees, raise the retirement age past 70 or create more workers, those now working must pay more. This can be done two ways, raise the payroll tax percentage by about 1/3 (for worker and employer) or remove the income cap and apply SS taxation to all income at the current rates. Another way to get SS cost savings is to reduce the retirement benefit costs. This may be done in two ways, as well, means test benefits such the SS is paid only up to the level of 250% to 300% of the maximum SS benefit, squeazing only the richest of retirees or to limit COLA adjustments and screw every retiree, squeazing the poorest retirees the hardest.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #42
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. By definition, SS pays out more to an individual then it takes in. Paying $1000 to be guaranteed $2000 is not "already paying for it."
    It isn't by definition, but but most people do collect more in benefits than what they have paid in as premiums. Those are nominal dollars of course. There is meanwhile that $2.7 trillion surpluis still sitting on the books. People paid to put that there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    2. Have you ever taken above a high school level economics course? The source absolutely DOES matter.
    All of my degrees are in economics, and I am at the back end of a (rather lucrative) 40+ year career as a practicing professional in that very field. What have you been up to?

  3. #43
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    I understand the math, professor.
    I've rarely found that to be the case in this forum. The math skills of most posters are simply atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    What I don't trust is the human element. You're assuming that the government will hold up its end of the equation. There's no guarantee that they will decrease the deficit spending to go along with the tax increases. Do you see how that might not work now?
    None of which -- even if remotely valid -- would have a thing to do with additional revenues decreasing deficit spending which was the ACTUAL POINT as you might remember but prefer not to because of what it would say about math skills.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. SS is by definition a Ponzi scheme (new entrees pay for departees, only works until the money runs out)
    Total nonsense. Ponzi schemes fail because they lack access to an actual stream of revenue. SS is plugged into the pretty much the most dependable revenue stream in the world -- tghe payrolls of covered US workers. The money doesn't run out so long as a single Americian is working in a covered position.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    2. the payouts are formulated based on a life expectancy of 70 years, and a worker to recipient ratio of 16 to 1.
    More total bunk. Neither number factors into the calculaton of benefits. These are variables that analysts (some well qaulified and some not) use to estimate what the actual forward balance between SS receipts and outlays will look like in the decades ahead.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    You should read this.
    I can guaranty you that I already know more about Social Security than that guy.

  6. #46
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Apparently, you believe it a certainty that Republicans -- even robbed of their primary purpose of making Obama a one-term President -- will continue to behave like so many crybabies and spoiled brats. If that is the course they indeed follow, why would anyone NOT blame them?
    of course I believe Republicans will continue to act like spoiled brats....I believe Democrats will as well.

    all involved have shown themselves to be spoiled brats.

    I think folks should prepare for the fiscal cliff... it seems we will be diving off of it shortly.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    None of which -- even if remotely valid -- would have a thing to do with additional revenues decreasing deficit spending which was the ACTUAL POINT as you might remember but prefer not to because of what it would say about math skills.
    Are you trying to tell me that humans have nothing to do with the deficit spending?

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Now we are getting to the crux of the real SS issue. More retirees per worker paying in, paying for more years of benefits per retiree and more retirees living long enough to get any benefits at all.
    The actual worker-to-retiree ratio in 1975 was 3.2-to-1. Today, it is 3.1-to-1. The SS Trustees predict it will drop to 2.0-to-1 in 2070. They do that by projecting that both legal and illegal immigration will be flat over most of the next 75 years. Wanna bet?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Any actuary will tell you that more contributions are needed and/or less benefits may be paid out.
    Any well-informed analyst would caution that either approach is tantamount to attempting to dismantle the system. Understand there is no actually demonstrated need to do anything at all. If the SS trustees are even slightly off in their projections of GDP, or of no net immigration, or in their assuimption that life expectancy will continue to grow at the same rate over the next 75 years as it did between 1975 and 2000, then the SS Trust Fund will never be exhausted and the system will be able to pay 100% of currently scheduled benefits in perpetuity. This is the other side of the coin. Better look at that one as well.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Your post is so full of inaccuracies and omissions that attempting to answer it seriously would mean completely scrapping your post.

    Instead, I'll just answer the question in your thread title: It doesn't matter.

    A better question would be: Who loses? Answer: The American people.

    You got anymore lying political hackery you want to share with us?
    It is the Republicans that are the losers and they want us all to be losers too.
    Misery loves company.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    I think folks should prepare for the fiscal cliff... it seems we will be diving off of it shortly.
    Congress will be back in town this week. At least the Democrats will. We'll see if the Republicans are up to it.

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