View Poll Results: Who's to blame for going of the the fiscal cliff?

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    45 54.22%
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Thread: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

  1. #31
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    ttwtt78640's Avatar
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    True, and I agree that we do need improvement here however, social security is separate from this budget shortfall.
    Congress, like a mentally challanged person, can only handle one thing at a time.
    1 (right now)... Correct tax rate for the wealthy
    2 (next week) .... Budget cuts
    3 (next month)......Social security reform
    All of this should have been done years ago...We did have a fair tax rate a generation ago....
    With the Congress that we have right now, I doubt if they can do a number one and a number two at the same time when using the facilities...
    Interesting that the order you, and Obama, like is #1) give the gov't more of someone else's money and then let's talk about maybe spending less, like should have been done earlier.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  2. #32
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Retirement age was already increased in 1983. And Social Security pays for itself so well that it is sitting on a $2.7 trillion surplus. SS plainly isn't the problem. And you might want to remember that the reason people are entitled to SS benefits is that they have already paid for them.


    This is all just foolish. The revenues that any tax scheme returns depend upon the rates that are set within it, not upon what type of a tax it is.
    1. By definition, SS pays out more to an individual then it takes in. Paying $1000 to be guaranteed $2000 is not "already paying for it."
    2. Have you ever taken above a high school level economics course? The source absolutely DOES matter.
    Last edited by ReformCollege; 12-24-12 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The retirement age DOES have to go up because of the baby boomer generation. There are SO many retiring and NOT enough younger people working. The baby boomer generation is going to eat up SS, and it will probably be gone by the time I retire, if I ever get to.
    You can only raise the retirement age so far and why only for SS and not civil service/military retirement? Once you accept that the number of years of retirement is a big issue, then why is that not also an issue for gov't employee retirement? Why should J. Q. Priavte work until age 70 and J. Q. Public work until only 55 (or earlier) to "retire"? You do realize that the higher the SS retirement age is, the more that will qualify for [i]higher[i/] benefits due to disability thus, for every worker that waits until after age 70, three more will rightly claim the elevated (20% more?) disability amount, retroactively to their disability date. While an office worker may hang on working until 70, I can guarantee that most construction or trades workers will not.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #34
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    ttwtt78640's Avatar
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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. By definition, SS pays out more to an individual then it takes in. Paying $1000 to be guaranteed $2000 is not "already paying for it."
    2. Have you ever taken above a high school level economics course? The source absolutely DOES matter.
    But consider that each $1 (or hour of labor) paid into SS in 1970 is worth over $7 (or hour of labor) in 2012 dollars simply due to inflation alone, not counting any "interest" accrued in the "trust me" fund. Not counting the effect of inflation (or time value of money) is very dishonest, when computing things simply using your $1 of money in = $1 of money out "magic formula".
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 12-24-12 at 04:41 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Well, let me try to explain. Deficit spending is spending that creates a deficit. Deficits themselves are calculated as spending minus revenues. But tax increases cause revenues to go up. If they go up by more than one-tenth of what had been the deficit, then raising taxes will have cut deficit spending by 10%. Do you see how that might work now?
    I understand the math, professor. What I don't trust is the human element. You're assuming that the government will hold up its end of the equation. There's no guarantee that they will decrease the deficit spending to go along with the tax increases. Do you see how that might not work now?
    Last edited by Dooble; 12-24-12 at 04:54 PM.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    But consider that each $1 paid into SS in 1970 is worth over $7 in 2012 dollars simply due to inflation alone, not counting any "interest" accrued in the "trust me" fund. Not counting the effect of inflation (or time value of money) is very dishonest, when computing things simply using your $1 of money in = $1 of money out "magic formula".
    I wasn't being dishonest about it. I'm not representing actual numbers, and I was talking hypothetically using values corrected for inflation. I think you'll agree with what I have to say in response, but I'm still going to put it out there. But, I'll respond to your problem with two points.

    1. SS is by definition a Ponzi scheme (new entrees pay for departees, only works until the money runs out) The first SS recipient paid just $44 in taxes, and collected $20,993 in benefits.
    2. the payouts are formulated based on a life expectancy of 70 years, and a worker to recipient ratio of 16 to 1.

    Basically, current retirees are getting far more than they paid into for SS, and they expect my generation to pay more in taxes and collect lower benefits so they can maintain their good deal. I say screw that.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You can only raise the retirement age so far and why only for SS and not civil service/military retirement? Once you accept that the number of years of retirement is a big issue, then why is that not also an issue for gov't employee retirement? Why should J. Q. Priavte work until age 70 and J. Q. Public work until only 55 (or earlier) to "retire"? You do realize that the higher the SS retirement age is, the more that will qualify for [i]higher[i/] benefits due to disability thus, for every worker that waits until after age 70, three more will rightly claim the elevated (20% more?) disability amount, retroactively to their disability date. While an office worker may hang on working until 70, I can guarantee that most construction or trades workers will not.
    Which is why you have to adjust the formula for the increased amount to be later as well. And yes, J. Q. public should have the same retirement age as J.Q. private.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The retirement age DOES have to go up because of the baby boomer generation. There are SO many retiring and NOT enough younger people working. The baby boomer generation is going to eat up SS, and it will probably be gone by the time I retire, if I ever get to.
    The baby boomer situation was already recognized in the 1970's. That's why the 1983 revisions were done and why we have been building up a surplus ever since. Even in the 25 years out worst case scenarios projected by the SS trustees, SS would be able to pay about 75% of scheduled benefits in perpetuity even if we do nothing at all. And 75% of scheduled benefits will be worth more then than 100% of scheduled benefits is worth now. You've bought a line of right-wing scare tactics.

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    as I suspected....you'll blame Republicans.
    Apparently, you believe it a certainty that Republicans -- even robbed of their primary purpose of making Obama a one-term President -- will continue to behave like so many crybabies and spoiled brats. If that is the course they indeed follow, why would anyone NOT blame them?

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    Re: Who's going to take the blame for the fiscal clif

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The baby boomer situation was already recognized in the 1970's. That's why the 1983 revisions were done and why we have been building up a surplus ever since. Even in the 25 years out worst case scenarios projected by the SS trustees, SS would be able to pay about 75% of scheduled benefits in perpetuity even if we do nothing at all. And 75% of scheduled benefits will be worth more then than 100% of scheduled benefits is worth now. You've bought a line of right-wing scare tactics.
    You should read this. Social Security Basics - Just Facts

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