View Poll Results: Can you live on Minimum Wage

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  • Yes

    30 40.54%
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Thread: Can you live on Minimum Wage

  1. #191
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    tessaesque's Avatar
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The article uses average rent like any other comparisons...and less rent can be totally unacceptable living conditions.

    If millions of americans work for min wage and its not supposed to be livable...what does that mean you work and cant live ?
    The map you cited does not use average rent. It uses market rent. Market rent is significantly higher than the actual rent agreed upon during lease implementation in most cases. The "market rent" for my last apartment was $870/month. Our actual rent was $635. The apartment before that had a market rent price of $950. We paid $675. In fact, every apartment I've lived in, both in Texas and in Indiana, had a similar structure. The "market rent" was based upon some manufactured value, but was never applied to actual leases. It's all a gimmick used by property managers to make people feel good about the rent they actually pay. "Well, I pay $800, but the market price was $1150!".

    Besides that, many people have shown how the "market rate" in the map is not representative of the actual options available. I can find 15 1-bedroom apartments near several job sources and public transit outposts that would be less than $450/month...and these apartments are relatively safe and in acceptable condition.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  2. #192
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now...you're correct. If that persons business REQUIRES 10 people to actually run, he's probably going to keep them employed if he wants to run his business. Which means he'll either have to take the $1,500 a month hit out of his own pocket OR through other savings around the office. OR he could deem that the business would no longer be practically profitable and thus close it down, losing all those jobs. Or, he decides that he can cut a portion of the business out to reduce overhead and need less people for smaller hit to profitability.
    I agree with what you are saying. However you left out the possibility of automation. Further automation may not be possible, but then again, the business owner may have been putting it off because of costs to acquire it and maintain it. That raise in payroll cost could possibly make that automation more affordable and attractive and cause the owner to adopt it, again costing jobs.

    If Walmart suddenly found itself having to pay $12/hr for cashers, how many would they replace with automated self check out registers instead of maned registers? How many maned registers would they choose to keep open at a given time? They could choose to do away with the counters in jewelry, automotive, hardware and sporting goods, consolidating them into a singe register with tobacco that has to be maned anyways. If they cut those positions and converted 50% of existing registers to self check out, how many employees could walmart cut?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #193
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    "...totally unacceptable living conditions."

    Ummmm....yeah...if anything less than a two bedroom apartment for one person is considered unacceptable then that, alone, should invalidate that whole article.
    Thats not what I said but you will continue to make what I say into what you want it to be...no need to continue

  4. #194
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    You could do it, but your entire frame of reference would have to change.
    You would need to share an apartment or rent a room from someone.
    You diet would be very limited. You would learn all about real economy.
    No cell phone, no cable TV, can't afford to run the AC.
    Sort of like life in the 50's!
    You get excited if they open a day old bread store within walking distance.
    People live among us who struggle with this every day, it is only a temporary station.
    This is the beauty of the USA, we are not assigned to a place in life for life.
    We can, through hard work, and commitment get promoted and get rises.

    As a young man I lived this life, it is hard, but it makes you appreciate the little things.
    In 1985 I was living on $400 per month while living alone at my new job in AZ. The car was paid for, a 79 Volare. I paid rent, food, utilities, gasoline, car insurance. I was working 60 hours a week, making $1000 per week take-home pay, and saving $600 per week.....
    Did that for 4 months.....
    Last edited by UtahBill; 12-19-12 at 01:38 PM.
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  5. #195
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, your own arguments aren't making logical sense.

    In one post you talk about a $12 minimum wage (and I believe even then you're suggesting it's not enough) That's a $3.75 increase, not a "50 ct" bump. Are you suggesting that $8.75 would be "livable"? Or are you just pulling an imaginary number out of thin air simply because it tries to make your point look better?

    Second, please then explain to me how it is you don't bleieve that raising minimum wage is going to diminish jobs. How you can sit here and give stereotypical anti-corporation rants about the evil rich people not caring about anyone and shipping out jobs and then turn around and act like they'll all bite a large hike right in the ass makes no sense.

    10 people making minimum wage, working a total of 40 hours a week, would be $3,300 in flat pay roll costs.

    10 people making the number you stated earlier, $12, for that same time span would be $4,800.

    That's a bit over a 45% increase in the cost of their payroll. Or roughly the equivilent of that person bringing on 4 1/2 new people in the old pay cycle.

    Now...you're correct. If that persons business REQUIRES 10 people to actually run, he's probably going to keep them employed if he wants to run his business. Which means he'll either have to take the $1,500 a month hit out of his own pocket OR through other savings around the office. OR he could deem that the business would no longer be practically profitable and thus close it down, losing all those jobs. Or, he decides that he can cut a portion of the business out to reduce overhead and need less people for smaller hit to profitability.

    Of course, this is assuming the business HAS to have those 10 and those 10 are all minimum wage workers. Lets say 7 of them are minimum wage, 2 make $16.50, and one (the manager) makes $33.

    His pre-increase payroll cost is $4,950. His post-incrase payroll cost would be $6,000. A little over a 21% increase in payroll. Again, could potentially take that money out of profits or some other part of the business. Or, you succeeded in redistributing that from one employee to the next as they'd potentially lower the other employees pay. So you get those 7 making $12 now, but the two people with the higher level job...they're now at $12 as well. And the one high end guy drops to $15.75, nearly cutting his pay in half. That would take it to a neutral point revenue wise.



    Well golly gee, your singular experience naturally makes you a greater expert on this than anyone else, regardless of their own experiences, and clearly anything people disagreeing with you state is just "anti-minimum wage rhetoric" (Note, perhaps you should comprehend what I right before slinging out insults considering I haven't once advocated against the minimum wage in this thread).

    You're right, sometimes paying more to your employees generates greater revenues for yourself because you attract a higher caliber of employee that functions at a better level and improves your business as a whole in a way greater than you'd have by simply saving on payroll. But even with your own constant stereotyping of the evil rich business owners being greedy and purely seeking money, if that is the case then those people already WOULD be paying more for their employees. If all business owners now care about is profit, regardless if that means shipping jobs overseas or whatever else, then in a situation you describe they'd be giving their employees more money. Unless yo'ure at this point suggesting its not "greed" but now just outright disdain and hate for others motivating them and thus they pay less to SPITE their employees despite making less profit for themselves.

    Your logic is ALL OVER the place and it's not surprising, because you're not actually arguing based on logic but based purely on emotion and platitudes. I don't have an issue that you disagree with me. There's many people that do, I fully get and understand that. My issue is your continual repeated attempts to demonize those that disagree with you as some kind of insult worthy individual, your misrepresentation of what people are actually suggesting, and your flippant dismissal of others points through the use of inconsistent arguments
    Im not addressing all that sorry...I didnt have a singular experience, I had many over many years...have you ever owned a business if so what kind and how many employees have you had

  6. #196
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Verthaine View Post
    I'm not making this comment about you..I don't know you or anything about you...but I love how people would rather make excuses,complain,argue,rather than simply ask the question "how did someone like me go from making minimum wage ($2.30 in 1977) to owning his own businesses".

    If someone isn't smart enough or can't get the start up money,that's just the way the "Game" is played.
    Don't hate the Player,hate the Game.
    All I can say is that I found a way to do it.
    (and I'm no one special)
    Too bad no one seems to interested in how I did it.

    I volunteer (and give considerable amounts of money) at a program that teaches at risk teens the restaurant business.
    So I have no problem reaching out to those who want to better themselves.
    And I have no problem walking over those who rather wallow in self pity and make excuses to reach those who want to better themselves.
    You did it the same way I did it and my wife...I owned several business' for many years and so has my wife...but umm not everyone is you and I and are in the same circumstances..

  7. #197
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The map you cited does not use average rent. It uses market rent. Market rent is significantly higher than the actual rent agreed upon during lease implementation in most cases. The "market rent" for my last apartment was $870/month. Our actual rent was $635. The apartment before that had a market rent price of $950. We paid $675. In fact, every apartment I've lived in, both in Texas and in Indiana, had a similar structure. The "market rent" was based upon some manufactured value, but was never applied to actual leases. It's all a gimmick used by property managers to make people feel good about the rent they actually pay. "Well, I pay $800, but the market price was $1150!".

    Besides that, many people have shown how the "market rate" in the map is not representative of the actual options available. I can find 15 1-bedroom apartments near several job sources and public transit outposts that would be less than $450/month...and these apartments are relatively safe and in acceptable condition.
    Ok Im trying to find another chart with actual rent...which you cant afford on minimum wage..Im not going to nor can anyone discuss every single small nuance of a subject that someone wants to use to make themselves right, its just impossible to do...like my trying to answer 26 posts in response to mine which im not nearly organized or smart enough to do lol...

  8. #198
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Im not addressing all that sorry...I didnt have a singular experience, I had many over many years...have you ever owned a business if so what kind and how many employees have you had
    Its a singular experience in that it's YOUR experience. Your experience may be encompassing multiple instances, but its still only YOUR experience. It is not somehow more important or knowledgable than others who also have had experiences on this topic and is not some kind of trump card saying "I've experienced this so that's how it is all the time". It's great you paid your employees more and that you feel it generated you more profit and that you reached a point in your own profitability and chance to have luxuries that you deemed yourself "good enough" that you began to give back. But that doesn't mean your experienecs are the same as others are are directly correlating to all others.

    I've assisted with running one of my father's business (a training school) for half a year while he was away, however largely my experience is from the experiences from my father (has ran three businesses. A gym, the training school I mentioned, and now a private security company) and my Grandfather (who ran a dress company for decades until cheap overseas labor basically made it impossible to remain in business) that they're related to me.

    That said...please, continue to "not address" and just revert back to stereotypical hyper partisan rhetoric, blanket statements without anything backing it up, and inconsistent illogical waffling arguments rather than actually. I'd hate to let actual debate or discussion get in the way, so go right ahead and continue to not address it. For example, feel free not to address the issues in your logic regarding your feelings and views regarding the greed of corporations and business owners and the expectation that somehow if the minimum wage is raised to a "living wage" that such wouldn't result in potential negatives in terms of job numbers, job conditions, or other thing other than simply "profit" of the business owner. Or the logical issue with suggesting that business owners are motivated by greed and the desire to make money and that's why they're paying their people minimum wage but at hte same time that paying more than minimum wage makes one more profitable. Go ahead and "not address" those things.

  9. #199
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    1)
    2) Visiting a city is not remotely the same as living in one. There're many, many things that I have at my fingertips all the time that you just don't.
    I agree it's not the same. I lived in Philadelphia for most of my life, thought it was great. Moved and couple years later Went back to visit Philly and it completely sucked. People who visit cities can see how much it sucks and be grateful they live in small towns.

  10. #200
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    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The map you cited does not use average rent. It uses market rent. Market rent is significantly higher than the actual rent agreed upon during lease implementation in most cases. The "market rent" for my last apartment was $870/month. Our actual rent was $635. The apartment before that had a market rent price of $950. We paid $675. In fact, every apartment I've lived in, both in Texas and in Indiana, had a similar structure. The "market rent" was based upon some manufactured value, but was never applied to actual leases. It's all a gimmick used by property managers to make people feel good about the rent they actually pay. "Well, I pay $800, but the market price was $1150!".

    Besides that, many people have shown how the "market rate" in the map is not representative of the actual options available. I can find 15 1-bedroom apartments near several job sources and public transit outposts that would be less than $450/month...and these apartments are relatively safe and in acceptable condition.
    Good points. Another factor in setting "actual rent" is the desire to get and keep good tenants, as the "make ready" costs, coupled with vacancy periods often create a false economy of establishing and maintaining the "maximum" possible market rate. My landlord has tenents that have remained in place for over a decade and care well for the structure and lot, in order to enjoy "below market" rental rates. If the landlord encounters a "bad tenant" they thus can simply up the rent to the "market" rate, effectively forcing the tenant to move "on their own".
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 12-19-12 at 01:49 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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