View Poll Results: Can you live on Minimum Wage

Voters
74. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    30 40.54%
  • No

    44 59.46%
Page 19 of 27 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 190 of 265

Thread: Can you live on Minimum Wage

  1. #181
    ˇSelah!
    Alyssa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    southern and midwestern United States where Protestant fundamentalism is dominant
    Last Seen
    05-07-14 @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,648
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And here's where I'm admittedly somewhat heartless when talking about a political issue...because frankly allowing emotional overreactions to a few to damage the country as a whole is wrong in my opinion in terms of political thought. And my view on this is similar regardless of which party a particular issue may favor.

    Do I feel for a single mother in such a situation? Absolutely. Does every single mother experience that because of poor decisions on their part? No, they don't. However...the reality is that society should not be promoting such a thing as the baseline, and making sure that such a thing is absolutely comfortably livable is setting it as a baseline. While not everyone in such a situation is there due to their own choices, making it far less sustainable through massive government assistance or mandate deters it.

    The problem with Poverty and other such things is it's a self fulfilling issue. The more you strive to make poverty or bad situations not just livable, but comfortably livable, then the more you promote people being in that condition. Maybe it's a conscious thought, maybe it's coincidence, maybe it's unconsious, maybe it's laziness or perhaps contented ness or possibly bad luck (and the acceptance of that bad luck as being the norm). But however it may be, the more you enhance the "livability" of life in poor situations, the more you encourage those poor situations to propagate and expand.

    The other issue is that actually ELIMINATING those poor situations is an impossibility due to human nature and reality. Our minimum wage is higher than it's ever been. Our amount of public aid, free/subsidized services, and assistance is greater than any time before. And yet we're still at roughly similar (and as you pointed out) higher number than in the past. Despite all our efforts it's not like this has changed and the call is simply for more, more, more.

    No, not all American's are entitled to their own individual two bedroom apartment. No, I disagreed with Bush and the Republicans when they suggested every American deserves a house. Yes, you know what, there are going to be people in ****ty...****ty situations. Some of which completely, or largely, beyond their own control. ANd you know what, I'm in favor of some safety nets for those individuals. My issue however, as clearly evidenced throughout the years and even by your own statements in this thread, is that there is a dishonest and disgusting tactic by some who suggest that if you don't constantly say "MORE, MORE, MORE" that somehow you want none. My issue is that I believe there's a difference between a safety net, something to catch you when you fall to ATTEMPT to climb back up, and simply installing a hammock down there that one can just kind of hang in while it's continually attempted to be raised higher and higher. I disagree, entirely, with this ridiculous and impossible notion of attempting to essentially "eliminate" poverty or assure everyone has some sort of "livable" situation which, based on your description, is actually a comfortable situation sans significant, or even minor, sacrifices or compromises.

    Now...if you want to simply, in a typical intellectually empty manner, decry me as "heartless" or go on some stereotypical hyper partisan anti-conservative rant instead of actually addressing what I say, be my guest. It simply highlights that your arguments is based off nothing but base emotional platitudes without an actual practical political or sociological application. If you disagree on specific points based on actual opinions/views backed by facts and prefer a different identifiable method, or a reason you dislike mine, then that's great. But it's see,img most responses is "grr greedy uncaring conservatives suck. People should be made comfortable because that'd be nice and stuff and well, um, just make 'the rich' pay for it somehow"
    I fully agree with this post. And yet the greater issue, imo, is corruption within the current political system. If welfare is to be eliminated, or cut significantly, all welfare not excluding corporate bailouts and subsidies also need to be reversed. Rich people also receive welfare which is even more unjust. The government should exist only to keep law and order; not to maintain a standard of living for people.

  2. #182
    Sage
    lpast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fla
    Last Seen
    05-21-16 @ 10:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    13,565

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Seems to me there was a thread about this here before...unless I'm mistaken and actually saw it in another forum.

    Anyway, there were two objections to this graphic and the article:

    1. Rents vary in any location. It's entirely possible to secure housing at less than whatever amount the article comes up with. That kind of negates the stated hours required.

    2. I haven't read this whole thread, but as Tigger says...minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage. For that reason, the article is disingenuous.

    So it goes.

    The article uses average rent like any other comparisons...and less rent can be totally unacceptable living conditions.

    If millions of americans work for min wage and its not supposed to be livable...what does that mean you work and cant live ?

  3. #183
    ˇSelah!
    Alyssa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    southern and midwestern United States where Protestant fundamentalism is dominant
    Last Seen
    05-07-14 @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,648
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The article uses average rent like any other comparisons...and less rent can be totally unacceptable living conditions.

    If millions of americans work for min wage and its not supposed to be livable...what does that mean you work and cant live ?
    The economy is going through a major shift. People either have to adopt or they don't- in which case they become welfare cases. Without a safety net, they starve. But this has always happened. Human beings are not exempt from the natural course of life.

  4. #184
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    I fully agree with this post. And yet the greater issue, imo, is corruption within the current political system. If welfare is to be eliminated, or cut significantly, all welfare not excluding corporate bailouts and subsidies also need to be reversed. Rich people also receive welfare which is even more unjust. The government should exist only to keep law and order; not to maintain a standard of living for people.
    Oh, I agree here. Many of the corporate subsidies and things we do I think are also problematic. I think a lot of these types of thing, both with the general public and with business, may even have a generalized good purpose but the METHOD in which they're persued actually run counter, or at least inefficient, towards that purpose.

  5. #185
    Sage
    lpast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fla
    Last Seen
    05-21-16 @ 10:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    13,565

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You're correct, he's not entitled to that. It doesn't change the fact that the repercussions he's speaking of are possibilities and would not just affect him but also those making the new minimum wage. Meaning, sure...they're getting more money. Their cost of living also has gone up, and the potential job opportunities have potential shrunk for them. We're not "entitled" to having a cheap goods and services, but that doesn't counter the argument he's making. Perhaps you should attempt to comprehend and understand my points before you parrot them in a way that they don't apply.
    I understand completely what your points are...you dont seem to want to accept I disagree with you. I also dont believe raising the minimum wage is going to diminish jobs...thats just excuse rhetoric used as filler to make an argument against it...anyone that NEEDS an employee to make money for them doesnt get rid of the job for 50cts an hour.
    I employed dozens and dozens of employees over the years and my wife many many more...so please spare me the parroting of the anti minimum wage rhetoric I dont buy it and I lived it as an employer who always paid more than minimum wage and always made more money than any of close competitors. A few bucks more in wages can make you alot more money...not this ridiculous claim by the opponents of it that its going to somehow crash the minimum wage job market...nonesense.

  6. #186
    ˇSelah!
    Alyssa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    southern and midwestern United States where Protestant fundamentalism is dominant
    Last Seen
    05-07-14 @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,648
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Oh, I agree here. Many of the corporate subsidies and things we do I think are also problematic. I think a lot of these types of thing, both with the general public and with business, may even have a generalized good purpose but the METHOD in which they're persued actually run counter, or at least inefficient, towards that purpose.
    I think people have the mentality that bad things aren't supposed to happen. But they are. And the government can't step in to prevent it without increasing in size exponentially. Nothing good comes from that.

    Benjamin Franklin said it best: "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

    While I do believe that there's a place for charity, it is undeniable that government intervention, in any fashion, only creates a larger and more intrusive government. I prefer liberty, and I believe that people are more capable of providing for their own security than society is being led to believe.

  7. #187
    Sage
    Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:48 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    25,880

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The article uses average rent like any other comparisons...and less rent can be totally unacceptable living conditions.

    If millions of americans work for min wage and its not supposed to be livable...what does that mean you work and cant live ?
    "...totally unacceptable living conditions."

    Ummmm....yeah...if anything less than a two bedroom apartment for one person is considered unacceptable then that, alone, should invalidate that whole article.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  8. #188
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    I understand completely what your points are...you dont seem to want to accept I disagree with you. I also dont believe raising the minimum wage is going to diminish jobs...thats just excuse rhetoric used as filler to make an argument against it...anyone that NEEDS an employee to make money for them doesnt get rid of the job for 50cts an hour.
    First, your own arguments aren't making logical sense.

    In one post you talk about a $12 minimum wage (and I believe even then you're suggesting it's not enough) That's a $3.75 increase, not a "50 ct" bump. Are you suggesting that $8.75 would be "livable"? Or are you just pulling an imaginary number out of thin air simply because it tries to make your point look better?

    Second, please then explain to me how it is you don't bleieve that raising minimum wage is going to diminish jobs. How you can sit here and give stereotypical anti-corporation rants about the evil rich people not caring about anyone and shipping out jobs and then turn around and act like they'll all bite a large hike right in the ass makes no sense.

    10 people making minimum wage, working a total of 40 hours a week, would be $3,300 in flat pay roll costs.

    10 people making the number you stated earlier, $12, for that same time span would be $4,800.

    That's a bit over a 45% increase in the cost of their payroll. Or roughly the equivilent of that person bringing on 4 1/2 new people in the old pay cycle.

    Now...you're correct. If that persons business REQUIRES 10 people to actually run, he's probably going to keep them employed if he wants to run his business. Which means he'll either have to take the $1,500 a month hit out of his own pocket OR through other savings around the office. OR he could deem that the business would no longer be practically profitable and thus close it down, losing all those jobs. Or, he decides that he can cut a portion of the business out to reduce overhead and need less people for smaller hit to profitability.

    Of course, this is assuming the business HAS to have those 10 and those 10 are all minimum wage workers. Lets say 7 of them are minimum wage, 2 make $16.50, and one (the manager) makes $33.

    His pre-increase payroll cost is $4,950. His post-incrase payroll cost would be $6,000. A little over a 21% increase in payroll. Again, could potentially take that money out of profits or some other part of the business. Or, you succeeded in redistributing that from one employee to the next as they'd potentially lower the other employees pay. So you get those 7 making $12 now, but the two people with the higher level job...they're now at $12 as well. And the one high end guy drops to $15.75, nearly cutting his pay in half. That would take it to a neutral point revenue wise.

    I employed dozens and dozens of employees over the years and my wife many many more...so please spare me the parroting of the anti minimum wage rhetoric I dont buy it and I lived it as an employer who always paid more than minimum wage and always made more money than any of close competitors. A few bucks more in wages can make you alot more money...not this ridiculous claim by the opponents of it that its going to somehow crash the minimum wage job market...nonesense.
    Well golly gee, your singular experience naturally makes you a greater expert on this than anyone else, regardless of their own experiences, and clearly anything people disagreeing with you state is just "anti-minimum wage rhetoric" (Note, perhaps you should comprehend what I right before slinging out insults considering I haven't once advocated against the minimum wage in this thread).

    You're right, sometimes paying more to your employees generates greater revenues for yourself because you attract a higher caliber of employee that functions at a better level and improves your business as a whole in a way greater than you'd have by simply saving on payroll. But even with your own constant stereotyping of the evil rich business owners being greedy and purely seeking money, if that is the case then those people already WOULD be paying more for their employees. If all business owners now care about is profit, regardless if that means shipping jobs overseas or whatever else, then in a situation you describe they'd be giving their employees more money. Unless yo'ure at this point suggesting its not "greed" but now just outright disdain and hate for others motivating them and thus they pay less to SPITE their employees despite making less profit for themselves.

    Your logic is ALL OVER the place and it's not surprising, because you're not actually arguing based on logic but based purely on emotion and platitudes. I don't have an issue that you disagree with me. There's many people that do, I fully get and understand that. My issue is your continual repeated attempts to demonize those that disagree with you as some kind of insult worthy individual, your misrepresentation of what people are actually suggesting, and your flippant dismissal of others points through the use of inconsistent arguments

  9. #189
    Guru
    Verthaine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    09-08-16 @ 02:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,044

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    My wife and I owned several business...Im not making this comment about you..I dont know you or anything about you...but I love how everyone that owned a business tells me how they busted their ass..and how I know many of them that are full of crap
    Not everyone can own a business or start one...many arent smart enough or could never get the start money.
    Just think if everyone was well off...who would clean the toilets and cut the grass and raise the richs kids while they play
    I'm not making this comment about you..I don't know you or anything about you...but I love how people would rather make excuses,complain,argue,rather than simply ask the question "how did someone like me go from making minimum wage ($2.30 in 1977) to owning his own businesses".

    If someone isn't smart enough or can't get the start up money,that's just the way the "Game" is played.
    Don't hate the Player,hate the Game.
    All I can say is that I found a way to do it.
    (and I'm no one special)
    Too bad no one seems to interested in how I did it.

    I volunteer (and give considerable amounts of money) at a program that teaches at risk teens the restaurant business.
    So I have no problem reaching out to those who want to better themselves.
    And I have no problem walking over those who rather wallow in self pity and make excuses to reach those who want to better themselves.

  10. #190
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The Republic of Texas.
    Last Seen
    11-15-17 @ 11:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,647

    Re: Can you live on Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Conditions have changed. There are 4 times as many people as there are jobs openings. Way more than that if you look at just the jobs openings that pay more than minimum wage. So, we either agree to a living wage, or taxpayers agree to pay more in welfare to those for whom there are no jobs or are paid substandard wages by employers.

    Do you have another alternative?

    Keep in mind also, there would be no better way of stimulating the economy than raising the minimum wage to a living wage.
    What would be the job ratio if we included the 7.7 million jobs held by illegals( figure was given for 2008)?

    You apparently believe that there should be a basic level of standard of living. As Zyphlin pointed out, if it is comfortable at the bottom, the why move up and do more? I also believe in Zyphlin's hypothesis. Basic needs should be met, that is humane, but only when someone puts forth the effort to earn them. Minimum wage is just that, minimum to meet basic needs. Food, clothing and shelter.

    People can get shelter, it may not be what someone likes or desires, but it is obtainable. Shelter is simply a living space where one can have some protection from the elements. If you think minimum wage earners in this country have it bad, let me relate to you something I once saw in Thailand, people lived in a series of large rooms and rented a space large enough for a sleeping mat and the "bathroom" was a walled off hole in the floor in one corner that had one faucet. However minimum, it did indeed meet the need of those people to have shelter. No one, not even welfare recipients or minimum wage earners in this country are forced to live at that basic of a level.

    People can get food. People need to get minimum daily nutritional requirements not eat filet mignon every meal. Variety is a luxury, not a necessity. As a child, we often ate pinto bean and rice with vegetables on the side, why, because that is what we could afford.

    Clothing can also be obtained. Clothes bought from Good Will and the Salvation Army meet basic needs just as well as designer fashions from popular trend stores. Fashion is a luxury. More than a few changes of clothes is a luxury. More than one pair of shoes is a luxury. Even if you don't go to GW or SA to buy clothes, I buy jeans at Walmart for around $10-$12 a pair, shirts for around the same. I don't know their prices for cheap jackets, socks, and underwear, but they probably have a cheap store brand. These items fill the need for clothing very affordably.

    Anything above fulfilling these basic needs at the minimum level is luxuries. Welfare should only afford a person the means to meet these basic needs at the minimum sustainable level only. Minimum wage in this country not only allows the meeting of these basic needs but allows luxuries also. So many luxuries that in many places throughout the world, our standard of living for Minimum Wage and Welfare would be considered comfortable middle class.

    Since minimum wage not only can meet the minimum level of meeting peoples needs and allows them luxuries, then it is already more than a living wage. When people on minimum wage can no longer afford the bare basic level of food clothing and shelter, then it should be raised. But we are no where near that base level.

    A higher minimum wage or "living wage" is not the best way to stimulate the economy. Can you provide any evidence that it can even have any stimulating affect upon the economy? How are you going to stop the entire economy from adjusting to that raise? Do you think that those who control companies will just say "hey, you know, they are right and I will accept less money this year"?

    The best way to stimulate the economy is to loosen credit. We saw that during the Clinton years, but what was the longterm affect of a credit based economy? CRASH. A credit based economy will always be unstable and will always eventually crash. If you want to stimulate and stabilize the economy for the longterm, you create an environment where the economy can flourish.

    "The only thing known to mankind that is immortal is a government spending program." probably a paraphrase and I don't know who said it.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

Page 19 of 27 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •