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Gun Control

Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

  • Yes

    Votes: 59 39.9%
  • No

    Votes: 74 50.0%
  • Others

    Votes: 15 10.1%

  • Total voters
    148
Except it does not say that. And that sort of incrementalism is a development that is not at all reflected in the finality of the actual definition which applied at the time.


In other words, unless there is a complete ban, you do not consider incremental steps such as magazine limits, waiting periods, massive taxes on gun purchases or ammo an infringement

you have claimed that infringement means a complete frustration of being able "to enjoy" one's second amendment rights and I recall you saying if you own one gun then that enjoyment cannot be curtailed

If you actually believe incremental stepping stones to a ban are not constitutional let us know but I also recall you saying all the current schemes to harass law abiding gun owners did not implicate constitutional matters.
 
Your problem is NOT with me. It is with what was written as the Second Amendment.
 
I see nobody who posts on this topic that is not taking a position. Perhaps you simply do not understand that position or are confused because it is different than yours? Positions that do not conform to traditional orthodoxy may be unsettling to those who follow the crowd.

Duh. The people who post are the debaters. As in any debate, there is an audience and the audience, in this type of forum, rarely if ever gives feedback. The audience reads what the debaters post in an attempt to understand the issue and maybe form their own opinion/stance on any given issue. Have you ever heard of a Debate where the goal was influencing the other debaters instead of the audience?
 
Your problem is NOT with me. It is with what was written as the Second Amendment.


1) to most of us the amendment's dictates are obvious

2) when you combine that with a complete lack of any proper foundation for finding that the federal government was actually delegated the power to regulate small arms it becomes even more clear

3) and then the ninth and tenth amendments are the finishing touches

when the hero of the mutated expanding government-FDR-had to rely on the commerce clause, that pretty much sealed the deal for us

You see I and many others actually start with an open mind-what was the purpose of the second amendment

some others however start with this premise-we need to keep others from owning guns so how do we twist and manipulate the USC to allow for our schemes to be "supported"
 
Except it does not say that. And that sort of incrementalism is a development that is not at all reflected in the finality of the actual definition which applied at the time.

You are stuck on assuming that since the definition of "militia" has changed (in your mind) that the meaning of "right of the people" and "shall not be infringed" have somehow changed as well. That same "logic" would dictate that since the meaning of "the press" has changed that "the people" now have a different right to free speech as well. Playing games with some word meanings and "changing times" in no way changes the fundamental intent of the second amendment, see the recent SCOTUS "Heller" decision, which affirms an individual right of the people, independent of any "militia" definition/service requirement. Cue up Cher singing "If I Could Turn Back Time"....
 
Yes, in most of the rest of the industrialized world. Have you not seen the statistics that show that?

I for one understand the statistics. But what some seem to be forgetting is that they had different laws from the start and they added onto them. Since in the US you are starting from a different base level, what laws work in other countries will not necessarily have the same affect here.

In those societies, even before the advent of the gun, swords were restricted in ownership, usually to a "Knight" Class and Noble Classes. When guns came into being, they applied the same restrictions upon them. When dealing with the issue of guns, you have to understand that the other countries have always had some restrictions on the ownership of "weapons" while the US has had very little restrictions upon ownership of "weapons".

The US is unique in it's attitudes and laws governing ownership of "weapons". Therefore, what works elsewhere will not necessarily work here. Because of our uniqueness in the issue, we have to seek a unique path and solution on the issue.
 
Be interested to see someone show that what happened in Newtown would not have happened if the shooter had a Rem M870 with a 5-rd tube instead of an AR.

I couldn't shoot an AR for squat. An 870? That is my prefered hunting weapon, and I am incredibly accurate with it (having won shooting competitions).

Most hoplophobes fear guns - especially 'assault weapons' - because they look scary.
They then believe their irrational respose to someting that scares them is a sound argument for the banning of same.

Yep. My point exactly. Just because it looks scary doesn't mean it is. The same concept goes for the AK47. How many of Americans see that as the bad guy gun? That had nothing to do with the abilities of the rifle, but because of who has carried them for 50 years. I mean the IRA gun of choice was the AR15. I am sure the Brits don't have a great impression of the gun.

At any rate...I am afraid of knives. I don't like them and they scare me because I know the chances of being cut by one in a hand to hand situation.
 
I couldn't shoot an AR for squat. An 870? That is my prefered hunting weapon, and I am incredibly accurate with it (having won shooting competitions).



Yep. My point exactly. Just because it looks scary doesn't mean it is. The same concept goes for the AK47. How many of Americans see that as the bad guy gun? That had nothing to do with the abilities of the rifle, but because of who has carried them for 50 years. I mean the IRA gun of choice was the AR15. I am sure the Brits don't have a great impression of the gun.

At any rate...I am afraid of knives. I don't like them and they scare me because I know the chances of being cut by one in a hand to hand situation.



Good post. It amazes me that people don't seem to understand they are comparing totally different cultures, with totally different history, traditions, customs, norms, laws and populations.
 
Yes, in most of the rest of the industrialized world. Have you not seen the statistics that show that?

Those statistics are irrelevant. They aren't "proof" of anything. Different nations of the "industrialized world" have far different societal factors. We have a far higher number of firearms, and we have for quite a long time. We are also much larger in population than most. We have a different governmental system, and our culture is vastly different. If you honestly think that ALL of these factors DON'T impact "violence" stats or "mass shooter" stats you are kidding yourself.
 
-QUOTE=Goshin;1061283795]Good post. It amazes me that people don't seem to understand they are comparing totally different cultures, with totally different history, traditions, customs, norms, laws and populations.[/QUOTE]

You think liberals of ALL people would understand that? I mean ignoring that is like going back to euginics again. It ignores all the scientific progress we have made, and the strides we have made to understand things like socio economic status. I mean if we were to do what the liberals do with gun crime...then all black people are drug addicts and bad parents and hookers. I mean that is SO far from accurate because of our understanding of socioeconomics, and things like access to better jobs etc. I mean how can they ignore that for one issue and apply it to another?

Oh...hypocrits. That is why.
 
I have repeatedly. I suspect that true believers only want to know one of two things: do you prostrate yourself before the same altar and worship the same gods as I do? Or not? Real life complications such as nuance of position escape them, confuse them, frustrate them and cause them to become angry. So when they cannot place someone in a neat little compartment that their limited mind can handle, they become irritable and attack what escapes their limited understanding.

Sounds like the rantings of delusional paranoia.

It is sad but it is simply part of life.

What is sad is your dishonesty with everyone on the board and your position.

My position on the Second Amendment has always been crystal clear. I am a strong supporter of the US Constitution and that includes the Second Amendment. You ask me what does it "allow US citizens"? I imagine many would object to the your use of the word allow. However, going with you in spirit, I would state does not allow anything specifically other than one important protection: it prevents the federal government from having your right to keep an bear arms INFRINGED by them.

The word "allow" was put in that post specifically for you because you seem to have this delusion that the Constitution is interpreted using YOUR odd definition of terms and phrases and your weird stance that the Constitution states that a citizen may only have ONE firearm. Unfortunately for you, the Constitution states NO such thing. It says that citizens have the right to bear ARMS, without infringement of the government.

It's unfortunate that you don't understand the time period, what was happening in our country and how important preventing tyranny was to our founders. Also, as I've stated before, in most states back when the Second Amendment took effect, it was a DUTY to be armed. The states EXPECTED citizens to be armed and ready at a moment's notice. You really should brush up on your history.

As you well know because you participated in it, we have had an exhaustive and most thorough discussion about what that word means. And using authoritative sources from the era of the writing and adoption of the Amendment that are expert in the meaning and usage of words, I have provided you and the board with a very exact meaning of the word INFRINGED.

Oh no, you're the ONLY one who agreed to your own definition of the word which, unfortunately for you, does NOT fit what the Second Amendment stood for in historical times.

It means that the government cannot defeat, break, contravene or destroy your right.

BTW, here is the definition of "infringe" from a constitutional dictionary.

infringe vb [Latin infringere] 1: violate, transgress 2: encroach, trespass Source: NMW

That is what the second amendment "allows US citizens"..... as you put it.

Says you but fortunately you are mistaken.
 
Says you but fortunately you are mistaken.

Its funny every time we have to discuss the definition that you provided for us and then came back to bite you in the posterior taking out a major chunk of credibility. So now you spend post after post attacking me and lying about what happened before.
 
Its funny every time we have to discuss the definition that you provided for us and then came back to bite you in the posterior taking out a major chunk of credibility. So now you spend post after post attacking me and lying about what happened before.

The definition I just provided is a definition taken out of a constitutional dictionary. It is a more accurate definition. Too bad that you can't CHOOSE the definition that best suits your agenda of limiting people's rights.

It's pretty sad that people like you want the government to have COMPLETE unmitigated control over the people. That is NOT what the founding fathers intended.

Ohhhhh. Boo freaking hoo. :lol:
 
The definition I just provided is a definition taken out of a constitutional dictionary. It is a more accurate definition. Too bad that you can't CHOOSE the definition that best suits your agenda of limiting people's rights.

Here it is for you. Here it is found by you. Here it is posted by you. Here it is agreed to by you. Here it is used by you. Here is it defended by you.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-control/139998-abc-nightline-pushing-gun-issue-w-194-a-31.html

You selected the definition in our long debate.

You picked the definition from Meriam Webster.

You were responsible for it and then it bit you in the butt and you have never gotten over the shame of it and have been trying to atone for your mistake to your fellow true believers in the gun culture ever since. The only problem is that you did not make a mistake. The definition you proved was fine and dandy. And it proved me correct and you wrong.

Thank you and Merry Christmas.
 
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Here it is for you. Here it is found by you. Here it is posted by you. Here it is agreed to by you. Here it is used by you. Here is it defended by you.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-control/139998-abc-nightline-pushing-gun-issue-w-194-a-31.html

You selected the definition in our long debate.

You picked the definition from Meriam Webster.

You must be delusional. I am not a constitutional expert and I only chose a definition off the internet and apparently I was wrong. :confused:



You were responsible for it and then it bit you in the butt and you have never gotten over the shame of it and have been trying to atone for your mistake to your fellow true believers in the gun culture ever since. The only problem is that you did not make a mistake. The definition you proved was fine and dandy. And it proved me correct and you wrong.

Since I'm not a constitutional lawyer or expert, you cannot hold me responsible for that. If YOU were a honest man, you would admit to the err of your ways. This is why I could never respect you or any of your opinions on any topic. You are one of the MOST dishonest people I have ever had the misfortune to come across. Really, you should be ASHAMED of yourself for the way you conduct yourself in these debates. It is truly shameful and really only makes you look bad and completely dishonest.
 
You must be delusional.

No. I am not. Here is the definition you found for us from the thread I provided a link to just above in 1089:

Since you seem to not know what the definition of "infringement" is, I will do you a favor. Here you are:

Definition of INFRINGE

transitive verb
1
: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another <infringe a patent>
2
obsolete : defeat, frustrate
intransitive verb
: encroach —used with on or upon <infringe on our rights>
— in·fring·er noun
See infringe defined for English-language learners »
See infringe defined for kids »
Examples of INFRINGE

They claim that his use of the name infringes their copyright.
Her rights must not be infringed.
Origin of INFRINGE

Medieval Latin infringere, from Latin, to break, crush, from in- + frangere to break — more at break
First Known Use: 1513
Rhymes with INFRINGE

butt hinge, impinge, syringe, unhinge

Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you yourself found?

Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you yourself located and posted for us?

Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you defended and agreed to in that same thread?
 
No. I am not. Here is the definition you found for us from the thread I provided a link to just above in 1089:



Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you yourself found?

Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you yourself located and posted for us?

Are you now saying that this was NOT the definition that you defended and agreed to in that same thread?

I never agreed to the second part of the definition. I maintained throughout that thread that only the first part of the definition was applicable to the second amendment. Also, the definition I came up with came from Merriam Webster.

If you are to be honest, then you MUST agree that a constitutional dictionary would be more accurate in defining any terms mentioned in the constitution and it's amendments, correct?
 
I never agreed to the second part of the definition. I maintained throughout that thread that only the first part of the definition was applicable to the second amendment. Also, the definition I came up with came from Merriam Webster.

If you are to be honest, then you MUST agree that a constitutional dictionary would be more accurate in defining any terms mentioned in the constitution and it's amendments, correct?

You presented the definition in total.

You agreed to it.
 
Oh Haymarket, since you seem to LOVE the Merriam Webster, here is the correct CONSTITUTIONAL definition of the word "infringe" taken directly from the times in which it was written. My old definition that I provided in the other thread you keep referring to was just a regular definition and NOT one related to directly to the constitution.

Read it and weep.

Definition of INFRINGEMENT

1
: the act of infringing : violation
2
: an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege
Examples of INFRINGEMENT

<any government action limiting freedom of speech is an infringement of the U.S. Constitution>
First Known Use of INFRINGEMENT 1628

Infringement - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 
Oh Haymarket, since you seem to LOVE the Merriam Webster, here is the correct CONSTITUTIONAL definition of the word "infringe" taken directly from the times in which it was written. My old definition that I provided in the other thread you keep referring to was just a regular definition and NOT one related to directly to the constitution.

Read it and weep.

Definition of INFRINGEMENT

1
: the act of infringing : violation
2
: an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege
Examples of INFRINGEMENT

<any government action limiting freedom of speech is an infringement of the U.S. Constitution>
First Known Use of INFRINGEMENT 1628

Infringement - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

In the world of debate, what you are now engaged in doing is the blatantly dishonest tactic of DEFINITION SHOPPING.

You presented a definition that you found of your own accord with no help or pressure from anyone.
It was agreed to as the binding definition by both yourself and myself and others as well in the thread.
Your very definition caused you to lose the debate.
So now you shop for a different one that you feel will allow you out of the trap that you built for yourself.

Anyone with sympathy can feel sorry for what you have done to yourself. And I do have sympathy. I feel for you.

Anyone with empathy can feel sorry for you building a trap, you stepping into that same trap, and then you trying to gnaw off your own leg to free yourself from the same trip of your own design. And I do have empathy. I feel for you.

But my sympathy and empathy do not extend to pretending that you did not agree to what you agreed to.
 
You presented a definition that you found of your own accord with no help or pressure from anyone.


This is true, but as I stated I was wrong. I know it's hard to believe, but it happens occasionally.

It was agreed to as the binding definition by both yourself and myself and others as well in the thread.

Who the hell are you, the dictionary police? :lamo No, you're wrong. Everyone agreed to the definition number 1. It was applicable. Definition number 2 was nonapplicable to the second amendment. Also, if you read the constitutional law definition that I provided (much more accurate than Webster), you will see that the definition you chose (obsolete) is not mentioned anywhere, and this definition is in accordance with the times in which the second amendment was drafted.

Your very definition caused you to lose the debate.
So now you shop for a different one that you feel will allow you out of the trap that you built for yourself.

It only makes sense to use the proper constitutional law definition of the word, don't you think? Or are you going to continue to insist that we use an inaccurate definition just to please yourself?

Anyone with sympathy can feel sorry for what you have done to yourself. And I do have sympathy. I feel for you.

LOL! Spare me.

Anyone with empathy can feel sorry for you building a trap, you stepping into that same trap, and then you trying to gnaw off your own leg to free yourself from the same trip of your own design. And I do have empathy. I feel for you.

I made a simple error. Why can't you accept that? Oh, I know why, because the real definition according to constitutional law blows YOUR definition out of the water, and makes you look foolish. I do feel sorry for you making yourself look so foolish on this thread. Such a shame that you have to rely on such dishonest debate tactics.

But my sympathy and empathy do not extend to pretending that you did not agree to what you agreed to.

I've given you the accurate definition time and time again. It's not my fault you can't handle the truth. :lol:
 
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