View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #941
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    I'm not sure you can point to a post where he does not.
    For somebody pretending to have me on IGNORE, there are certainly no shortage of mentions of me in your posts.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It has become obvious that your continual obsession with race and its statistics regarding crime is NOT A STAWMAN but a very important part of how you think about this entire issue.

    And the fact is the law in Australia was passed because of a string of mass gun murders and that has stopped after the law. Nothing you have presented changes that reality.

    here it is for you - yet again
    What is their rate of other violent crime? What is their rate of petty crime? Australia has always had some restriction on gun ownership, America has only had a relatively small amount of time when any restrictions were put on our ownership. How does that affect whether or not a society will accept further curtailment of gun ownership? Prior to the ban, what was their rate of ownership of that type of gun vs the rate of ownership in the US? Did they only ban new sales or did they take existing ones away? If we want, as a government, to take away the existing ones, how could that possibly be done when so many would rather fight to keep them instead of turning them over? How are you even going to get a constitutional amendment through to attempt to take them away? Can what the Australians done even be done in the US without a constitutional amendment?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #943
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We had no real welfare programs in the Gilden Age of the last half of the 1800's. That did not help poverty. It helped provide one of the worst condidtions for Americans to live under in our history.
    We also had the highest rates of gun ownership. We also had an extremely low murder rate (probably other violent crimes). So, we do know, outside of other factors, the higher the unrestricted gun ownership rate, the lower the murder rate. Tell me how pointing out the late 1800s supports your argument for gun bans? Heck, Americans actually sometimes had better guns than the military did.

    I have not seen any statics or facts supporting your assumption of Poverty and poor living conditions. Perhaps you have some facts relating to that?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  4. #944
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    What is their rate of other violent crime?
    I do not know. Nor is that the purpose of the gun law. It was aimed at stopping mass gun murders and it achieved that goal.

    What is their rate of petty crime?
    I do not know. What does that have to do with a law passed to stop gun mass murders?


    Australia has always had some restriction on gun ownership, America has only had a relatively small amount of time when any restrictions were put on our ownership.
    Towns in the western states in the 1800's used to ban guns outright in city limits. Gun control has been a part of this nation for several centuries now.



    How does that affect whether or not a society will accept further curtailment of gun ownership?
    I would argue that I see no real proposal to curtail gun ownership. Simply not allowing unbridled and unrestrained technology to rule the day and the menu available is not curtailing gun ownership.

    Prior to the ban, what was their rate of ownership of that type of gun vs the rate of ownership in the US? Did they only ban new sales or did they take existing ones away?
    I do not know.



    If we want, as a government, to take away the existing ones, how could that possibly be done when so many would rather fight to keep them instead of turning them over?
    I have seen no proposal for confiscation of existing legal weapons. And yes, I am aware of the hecklers veto that many on this issue claim they would exercise if it ever came to that. Some would so value their weapons that they would rather destroy the USA in the process. I hope it does not come to that and that is one reason why confiscation is not a viable proposal.

    How are you even going to get a constitutional amendment through to attempt to take them away?
    I do not think that is under consideration. I certainly would NOT favor that approach nor its result.

    Can what the Australians done even be done in the US without a constitutional amendment?
    Absolutely. One can get rid of certain guns like during the ten year Clinton period and the right to keep and bear arms still exists. There is more than one meal on the restaurant menu and the removal of an item of ten does not mean one will starve.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #945
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes, if I could get my wish or snap my fingers I strongly would indeed favor criminal law being national. Yes and no doubt about it. And yes, the causes of it need to be addressed nationally as well.

    But I make no such proposal nor do I believe it is possible.

    Now your turn to answer my question about which position you identify with
    More closely to the second, but not as you stated it. It is largely up to state/county/city gov't to enforce the laws, with emphasis on violent crime. If they feel unable to do so they should solicit help from other agencies in their state, perhaps even using the NG for large scale sweeps (if required).

    It is not that we lack local laws, or the general local means to enforce them. The biggest problems as I see them, are 1) lack of trust/cooperation between many citizens and their law enforcement, 2) cultural taboos on "ratting out" criminals and 3) the judical/correctional system is way overwhelmed now; things like plea deals and serving low percentages of even those lenient sentences "recycle" a nearly endless supply of "carreer" criminals.

    Crime in this nation is very much the doing of a teeny tiny minority of the folks, yet we all are made to suffer from it. It is not the tools of the criminal minority that pose the problem but their acting with seeming impunity, despite our "best efforts" to stop them. If all else fails then make roads in the ghettos one way (out) and bulldoze them, but trying to change the rules (restrict the rights) for all of US society in hopes of eventually impacting the tiny criminal minority is not the answer, for sure.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #946
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not know. Nor is that the purpose of the gun law. It was aimed at stopping mass gun murders and it achieved that goal.



    I do not know. What does that have to do with a law passed to stop gun mass murders?




    Towns in the western states in the 1800's used to ban guns outright in city limits. Gun control has been a part of this nation for several centuries now.





    I would argue that I see no real proposal to curtail gun ownership. Simply not allowing unbridled and unrestrained technology to rule the day and the menu available is not curtailing gun ownership.



    I do not know.





    I have seen no proposal for confiscation of existing legal weapons. And yes, I am aware of the hecklers veto that many on this issue claim they would exercise if it ever came to that. Some would so value their weapons that they would rather destroy the USA in the process. I hope it does not come to that and that is one reason why confiscation is not a viable proposal.



    I do not think that is under consideration. I certainly would NOT favor that approach nor its result.



    Absolutely. One can get rid of certain guns like during the ten year Clinton period and the right to keep and bear arms still exists. There is more than one meal on the restaurant menu and the removal of an item of ten does not mean one will starve.
    What does the other crimes mention have to do with anything? Well, this a gun control thread relating to all gun violence, not just Mass shootings. You also seem to be advocating for adopting a foreign law that you admit to not knowing the details of. You equate some towns restrictions with nation wide restriction/laws. You say it is not a curtailment on the right to own guns, but it clearly is taking away the right to purchase many different guns.

    You also don't seem to understand what they Clinton era "ban" really said. Not all "assault weapons" were baned from new sales, the ban only affected new sales, not the transfer or sale of pre-existing arms or magazines. Was the ban ever constitutionally challenged in the Supreme Court? What reducing affect do you think a new ban would have on pre-existing guns and magazines?

    You also seem to equate "assault weapons" with mass shootings. Tell me, what "assault weapon" was used in Tucson? What firearms were used at columbine and did they get them through legal means? Were "assault weapons" the only ones used during any of the mass shootings?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  7. #947
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why is it that one tactic used by the gun culture on these sites is to almost always try to get the conversation steered to technical matters?

    Cars are indeed limited by law and not by technology.
    Because if you are going to claim "hi powered" as a limiting factor...you're going to have to define what that is.

    Still, no one needs to go over 55 mph...other than cops. Why don't we make civilian vehicles that go over 55 illegal, since safety is our goal and we all know that speed kills.

  8. #948
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Its a "loose cannon thing"..
    I fully know what this is like...no loose cannon should be allowed to own lethal weapons.....period....Automobiles are far safer.
    How do you figure? More people are killed by automobiles than guns in the US.

    Its ludicrous to allow gun ownership without a 100% background check, as we do not know where all the loose cannons are.....and who they are...
    No-one is trying to get rid of background checks.

    Automobile-wise, we have made huge strides - no more Pontiac Tempest GTO with 6 cylinder brakes and handling (one example)..
    And yet people die every day from excessive speed and wreckless driving.

    However, I thinks that it is impossible to sell "gun safety/regulation" to the NRA and its lackeys, the tea bagging conservatives...
    Not any more than lead can be talked into being gold..
    Actually, the NRA does more to promote gun safety than pretty much any other single organization in the US.

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims

    The latest NYPD statistics show that crime is centered overwhelmingly in minority-group neighborhoods
    - NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims - NY Daily News

    would you like stats from Chicago, Detroit and Michigan etc?
    Exactly...which means that the real way to reduce crime is to improve education and reduce poverty rather than attacking inanimate objects.

  10. #950
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    H.Lee and me are on the same page. I have at least 8 firearm books. I know Eugene Stoner and I have written papers on Browning (my favorite designer I believe). I will agree to disagree with you.
    You can deny all history as far as I am concerned, you never posted any chronology or fact refuting what I posted.

    The relevant question in this thread is: do you think we as civilians should be allowed to own them? The AR 15 semi automatic. Or a fully automatic rifle built around the AR platform or any other Platform? I believe in the class 3 license we have right now for full autos. I think that is done.
    Before the NRA had it's schism and became the radicalized entity it now is, there were so fewer of you who believe in their extremist philosophy of arming every US man, women and child. It used to be an organization focused on hunting, not creating members who feel they should be purchasing semi/full auto large clip military weapons. These are not hunting or marksmanship tools, they are designed to kill humans at a fast rate, that is what they were designed to do. They are not for personal protection as one can argue a revolver is, they were created for shock troops. And the argument that "we need to defend against a tyrannical govt" is just hogwash, US military weaponry far exceeds what you have, and you just are sliding down the slope if you argue you need to match them.

    There is no seriousness in your argument, this is just a bunch of white guys with inadequacies filling a void.

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