View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
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    102 50.00%
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    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #911
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Crime is crime is crime. Citizens are citizens are citizens.

    I note that you have ignored the actual statistics given to about the Australia experience. Why is that? The fact is that what they experienced was nothing less than a sea change - especially in the one area we are talking about - mass killings with guns.
    While assault and rape went up 40% and 20%. Sorry that does not float. I mean a woman being 3 times more likely to be raped in Australia vs the US is just sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do NOT want to put words into your mouth so please correct or clarify if this does not apply to you: I cannot help but notice that among many on the right a new meme has popped up as a subtext in these discussions. It is said subteley and often in code. It is said in politically correct phrases as you just did above. But in the end what that are saying is pretty much this:

    Its those damn minorities and their degenerate sub culture that are the problem. Decent white folks have no problem with guns.

    This comes across over and over again from many posters and many commentators in the right wing media.
    Well how about I say it....

    The majority of gun crime comes from minority inner city communities. I know the truth hurts, but that is the problem. Minority on minority crime fueled by the drug trade. I mean when 75%+ of your gun crime comes from that alone, you need to stand up and take notice.

    PS That number is a conservative estimate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  2. #912
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I see that you choose to "zoom in on" the recent rise in "mass killings", as that much better fits the current push for "gun control", while ignoring the real majority of gun crime, committed largely in urban areas, by young minority males involved in gang/drug culture and using handguns (not "assault weapons"). When you make "the rules" only to justify your policy desires, it is easy to ignore all that does not support your idea. Focusing on .2% (or less) of gun crime as justification for "doing something", while ignoring all else that does not "get fixed" by that change in rights is silly. How effective was the last AWB? Does/did Australia ever have a 2nd amendment, right of its people to be armed? You constantly assert that our 2nd amendment right exists, yet see it only as a "limitted" or "dated" right that simply needs more limits and that "common sense discussion" somehow trumps it.
    One problem at a time is a conservative approach on the road to hoped for perfection. I would also expect that possible solutions and reforms can impact many different areas of the crime problem.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    While assault and rape went up 40% and 20%. Sorry that does not float. I mean a woman being 3 times more likely to be raped in Australia vs the US is just sad.



    Well how about I say it....

    The majority of gun crime comes from minority inner city communities. I know the truth hurts, but that is the problem. Minority on minority crime fueled by the drug trade. I mean when 75%+ of your gun crime comes from that alone, you need to stand up and take notice.
    When I made assertions of fact, I did what is normally expected in debate and provided the statistics. Could you please do the same?
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  4. #914
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    One problem at a time is a conservative approach on the road to hoped for perfection. I would also expect that possible solutions and reforms can impact many different areas of the crime problem.
    The "conservative" approach is to first amend the Constitution; not to simply pretend "shall not be infringed" really means "may be limitted as desired".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When I made assertions of fact, I did what is normally expected in debate and provided the statistics. Could you please do the same?
    NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims

    The latest NYPD statistics show that crime is centered overwhelmingly in minority-group neighborhoods
    - NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims - NY Daily News

    would you like stats from Chicago, Detroit and Michigan etc?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #916
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When I made assertions of fact, I did what is normally expected in debate and provided the statistics. Could you please do the same?
    More of the statistics you wanted to see...

    Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

    In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
    Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
    Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
    Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

    Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
    During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
    Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
    Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
    At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
    Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
    - AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

    The public's perception is that violence is increasing, but trends in violent crime reported to police since the early 1990s reveal a mixed story. Homicide has decreased by nine percent since 1990 and armed robbery by one-third since 2001, but recorded assaults and sexual assaults have both increased steadily in the past 10 years by over 40 percent and 20 percent respectively. - Australian Institute of Criminology - Trends in violent crime

    Nuff said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #917
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The "conservative" approach is to first amend the Constitution; not to simply pretend "shall not be infringed" really means "may be limitted as desired".
    Actually the most conservative path is that of the Constitutional originalist who wants to know what the words meant at the time of its adoption. And that is the path I have pursued.
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  8. #918
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    More of the statistics you wanted to see...

    [b]Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

    In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
    Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
    I thought we were talking about gun crimes?

    Assault could be almost anything. Rapes are generally committed with a penis - not a gun.

    And remember - the law was passed to stop mass murders with guns. And that it did as cited by the previous stats where NONE occurred. They achieved their goal and achieved it rather excellently.

    The results are hard to argue with. According to a Harvard University study, 13 gun massacres (in which four or more people died) occurred in the 18 years before the law was enacted. In the 16 years since there has been none. Zero. The overall firearm homicide rate dropped from 0.43 per 100,000 in the seven years before the law to 0.25 in the seven years after. By 2009, the rate had dropped further, to just 0.1 per 100,000, or one per million.

    In the USA, the 2009 firearm homicide rate was 3.3 per 100,000, some 33 times higher than Australia's.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-23-12 at 01:17 PM.
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  9. #919
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims

    The latest NYPD statistics show that crime is centered overwhelmingly in minority-group neighborhoods
    - NYPD statistics show 96 percent of shooting victims are black or Hispanic and that minority groups represent 89 percent of all murder victims - NY Daily News

    would you like stats from Chicago, Detroit and Michigan etc?
    Do you exist in a nation composed only of New York City?

    Since you offered......... What I would like is statistics for the entire nation and not simply cherry picked by you to custom fit your own personal narrative.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from the article I presented



    Which leaves 40% non European.

    As I stated - they are a multicultural nation.

    But again, is there a subtext being attempted here that this is some sort of American unuque problem because of 'colored folks and their degenerate culture which is ruining it for all those decent white folks'?

    And if that is denied as a subtext here - why is it important to even make race an issue?
    Ok, I accept that they are multi ethnic. That does not mean multi-cultural.

    Also, where did you pull that number from? Under Ancestry of Australian population, from your own link, English (36.1%) (2011), Australian (35.4%) (2011), Irish (10.4%) (2011), Scottish (8.9%), Welsh (0.57%) (2011), and New Zealand (0.81%). All, at one time, were part of the British Empire/Commonwealth. You apparently left off those who only identify themselves as Australian. Perhaps you think they are the Aboriginal Australians, but the listing lists them Australian Aboriginal (0.58%). Kind of hard to prove the level of mutli-ethnicity, much less multi-culturalism when 35.4% claim Australia. We have no idea of their true ethnicity. However, it does go a ways in disproving broad claims of multi-culturalism.

    You can have mono-culturalism and still have multi-ethnicity. The minority ethnics adopt and assimilate into the existing culture. This happened in the US, prior to the adoption of a "multi-cultural" stance by some in the US.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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