View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #901
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What happened to events like this when they made the changes in Australia - a nation with a similar frontier culture as the USA?
    I have no clue, perhaps you will enlighten us all. What happened in Mexico, one of our nearest neighbors?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I have no clue, perhaps you will enlighten us all. What happened in Mexico, one of our nearest neighbors?
    Editorial: Australian gun control holds lessons for U.S.

    So, when a gunman killed 35 people in 1996 with a semiautomatic rifle in the tourist town of Port Arthur, on the island of Tasmania, the Australian people decided it was time for a change. A new law, backed by a conservative prime minister, divided firearms into five categories. Some of the deadliest assault-style weapons and large ammunition clips are now all but impossible for individuals to lawfully own. Firearms are subject to a strict permitting process, and dealers are required to record sales, which are tracked by the national and territorial governments. What's more, the law encouraged people to sell their firearms back to the government, which purchased and destroyed about 700,000 of them.

    The results are hard to argue with. According to a Harvard University study, 13 gun massacres (in which four or more people died) occurred in the 18 years before the law was enacted. In the 16 years since there has been none. Zero. The overall firearm homicide rate dropped from 0.43 per 100,000 in the seven years before the law to 0.25 in the seven years after. By 2009, the rate had dropped further, to just 0.1 per 100,000, or one per million.

    In the USA, the 2009 firearm homicide rate was 3.3 per 100,000, some 33 times higher than Australia's.
    I hope that helps.

    Australia is a nation a whole lot like the USA. Mexico is an impoverished third world state with a pretty much failing government.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #903
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Editorial: Australian gun control holds lessons for U.S.



    I hope that helps.

    Australia is a nation a whole lot like the USA. Mexico is an impoverished third world state with a pretty much failing government.
    Australia is an island with a very strict immigration policy and very few ethnic ghettos.

    1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 1995

    Australian Immigration - Multiculturalism
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Australia is an island with a very strict immigration policy and very few ethnic ghettos.

    1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 1995

    Australian Immigration - Multiculturalism
    Australia was created by much the same immigrant population which created the early USA.

    I fail to grasp any point in the reference to ghettos. Could you elaborate on that please and tell us why it is significant?

    I looked over the article you provided and I came to a very different conclusion that yours. Australia is indeed a multi-cultural nation composed of a variety of groups - both immigrant and indigenous and shares much of the American experience in that way and in the development of the nation as a frontier country.

    This will help

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-23-12 at 11:58 AM.
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    Re: Gun Control (Once again, both sides are wrong)



    Once again, both sides are wrong....

    The proposition of gun control is, and always has been, a danger to our liberties. The right to own a gun is an essential American freedom protected by the second amendment. Not to mention gun control simply does not stop violence. After all guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people!

    However the NRA proposal to put armed guards in every school is equally repulsive. Putting big men with weapons around students does not cause a "safer learning environment", it simply causes a state of paranoia which may cause some students to lose the ability to concentrate on gaining knowledge for feeling that they are in some sort of prison.

    Tragedies like Sandy Hook are sad but nothing can really be done without other consequences...

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Australia was created by much the same immigrant population which created the early USA.

    I fail to grasp any point in the reference to ghettos. Could you elaborate on that please and tell us why it is significant?

    I looked over the article you provided and I came to a very different conclusion that yours. Australia is indeed a multi-cultural nation composed of a variety of groups - both immigrant and indigenous and shares much of the American experience in that way and in the development of the nation as a frontier country.

    This will help

    Demographics of Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Note the majority of US crime, especially gun crime, where it occurs, and who commits the vast majority of it. It has little to do with "mass killings", but much to do with overall crime (gang/drug culture). Also note differences in geographic security (island) and immigration control policy. Also note our "open" border with a "third world" and "ungoverned" nation, that you mentioned earlier. Controlling guns, is much like controlling "recreational drugs", virtually impossible under our current scheme of things.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #907
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Note the majority of US crime, especially gun crime, where it occurs, and who commits the vast majority of it. It has little to do with "mass killings", but much to do with overall crime. Also note differences in geographic security (island) and immigration control policy. Also note our "open" border with a "third world" and "ungoverned" nation, that you mentioned earlier. Controlling guns, is much like controlling "recreational drugs", virtually impossible under our current scheme of things.
    Crime is crime is crime. Citizens are citizens are citizens.

    I note that you have ignored the actual statistics given to about the Australia experience. Why is that? The fact is that what they experienced was nothing less than a sea change - especially in the one area we are talking about - mass killings with guns.

    I do NOT want to put words into your mouth so please correct or clarify if this does not apply to you: I cannot help but notice that among many on the right a new meme has popped up as a subtext in these discussions. It is said subteley and often in code. It is said in politically correct phrases as you just did above. But in the end what that are saying is pretty much this:

    Its those damn minorities and their degenerate sub culture that are the problem. Decent white folks have no problem with guns.

    This comes across over and over again from many posters and many commentators in the right wing media.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #908
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Crime is crime is crime. Citizens are citizens are citizens.

    I note that you have ignored the actual statistics given to about the Australia experience. Why is that? The fact is that what they experienced was nothing less than a sea change - especially in the one area we are talking about - mass killings with guns.
    I see that you choose to "zoom in on" the recent rise in "mass killings", as that much better fits the current push for "gun control", while ignoring the real majority of gun crime, committed largely in urban areas, by young minority males involved in gang/drug culture and using handguns (not "assault weapons"). When you make "the rules" only to justify your policy desires, it is easy to ignore all that does not support your idea. Focusing on .2% (or less) of gun crime as justification for "doing something", while ignoring all else that does not "get fixed" by that change in rights is silly. How effective was the last AWB? Does/did Australia ever have a 2nd amendment, right of its people to be armed? You constantly assert that our 2nd amendment right exists, yet see it only as a "limitted" or "dated" right that simply needs more limits and that "common sense discussion" somehow trumps it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #909
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Australia was created by much the same immigrant population which created the early USA.

    I fail to grasp any point in the reference to ghettos. Could you elaborate on that please and tell us why it is significant?

    I looked over the article you provided and I came to a very different conclusion that yours. Australia is indeed a multi-cultural nation composed of a variety of groups - both immigrant and indigenous and shares much of the American experience in that way and in the development of the nation as a frontier country.

    This will help

    Demographics of Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Funny, by far the largest number of "cultural" immigrants and indeed the highest percentage of heritage is English. Other Portions of the British Empire and British Commonwealth have large representations. The total sum/percentage of non-English related cultures doesn't even come close to the percentage of "African Americans". To call the very small percentage from outside the British Empire/Commonwealth a "multi-cultural" influence is stretching things just a bit far. No, it is by far an British based mono-culture.

    While we do share some cultural aspects with Australia, there are many we do not. Our history is quite different also. Perhaps the biggest Cultural difference between the US and Canada and Australia is the fact that the US was created by Revolution against England, while Canada and Australia both remained under British rule much longer and still swear loyalty to the British Crown. The very nature of our Founding as an independent Nation was the basis of our "gun culture", much more so than being a Frontier society.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Gun Control

    from the article I presented

    60.2% of Australia's population declared European ancestry in the 2011 census
    Which leaves 40% non European.

    As I stated - they are a multicultural nation.

    But again, is there a subtext being attempted here that this is some sort of American unuque problem because of 'colored folks and their degenerate culture which is ruining it for all those decent white folks'?

    And if that is denied as a subtext here - why is it important to even make race an issue?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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