View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #651
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    because massive government agencies have said so.

    I realize its hard for many people to fathom but most of us with CCWs are better shots and as well or better trained than most cops

    the government agencies spent years determining what were the best choices for self defense. I think its reasonable for HONEST law abiding to look to groups that have studied the issue and they all come up with the same type of weapon. when I was involved in a shooting the DA asked me in front of the Grand Jury why I had the gun I did and I said its the one my local department had listed as approved backup or off duty weapons and the DA noted that was a very good reason

    I note that many of the antigun nuts assume that we are using these weapons improperly without understanding that felons and criminals are not allowed to owning guns
    But you are NOT a police officer and you do not have the same job or duties as they do that require you to have the same weaponry as they do.

    I do not disagree with you or take issue with you that you perhaps do have superior shooting skills compared to some or even most officers. I really do not see that as the issue here.
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  2. #652
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But you are NOT a police officer and you do not have the same job or duties as they do that require you to have the same weaponry as they do.

    I do not disagree with you or take issue with you that you perhaps do have superior shooting skills compared to some or even most officers. I really do not see that as the issue here.


    that is not the issue. the issue is when I looked for a handgun for self defense back before I really became someone so well trained that I help train other individuals in self defense, I figured my local department was a good choice.

    It would be like a serious college tennis player trying to decide what gear to use-and looking to a pro who had a similar style

    when I was a top collegiate athlete in another racquet sport, I asked my coach what gear I should use and he suggested that of a top player whose style I had a similarity to. I wasn't a pro level player but that was good advice.

    what you are trying to suggest is that self defense for cops is different based on their status and thus the guns should be different. Or that society should ignore the fact that the situations are almost always the same in terms of probabilities but cops should be allowed more efficient weapons because they serve the state


    What I am saying is that cops and other civilians are fighting against the same criminals in usually the same physical environment and thus the legal environment should be the same

  3. #653
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is not the issue. the issue is when I looked for a handgun for self defense back before I really became someone so well trained that I help train other individuals in self defense, I figured my local department was a good choice.

    It would be like a serious college tennis player trying to decide what gear to use-and looking to a pro who had a similar style

    when I was a top collegiate athlete in another racquet sport, I asked my coach what gear I should use and he suggested that of a top player whose style I had a similarity to. I wasn't a pro level player but that was good advice.

    what you are trying to suggest is that self defense for cops is different based on their status and thus the guns should be different. Or that society should ignore the fact that the situations are almost always the same in terms of probabilities but cops should be allowed more efficient weapons because they serve the state


    What I am saying is that cops and other civilians are fighting against the same criminals in usually the same physical environment and thus the legal environment should be the same
    Oh but I think that is exactly the issue. You are not a cop. To pretend that the standards and equipment needs that apply to them as professional police officers apply to civilians is simply not a solid argument.

    That is a difference and I suspect most people recognize that difference. You are NOT fighting criminals the way police are. You are NOT in the same environment they are as officers performing their duties.

    And I think this is what divides so many people on this issue.

    I have said this many times: I support the right of a person and the need of a person to have a firearm for personal defense, home defense, business defense, hunting, target shooting, competition use, and other such uses. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Americans do as well. Outside of the most extreme anti-gun people, I really see no movement to change this.

    I do not support people having armories. I do not support people having military weapons that have large capacity magazines. I do not support people having automatic weapons.

    HONEST QUESTION FOR YOU TURTLE: much of this then comes down to the idea that somehow someday you are going to need your armory or your weapons to do battle with the police and armed forces of the nation in some sort of armed resistance to tyranny. And that is why you want all this stuff to put you on the same level with the police and military.

    If you want to believe that, it is your right to believe that. I think it borders on serious mental delusion that smacks of paranoia. But that is just my opinion.

    The point is that as long as that is the ace card the gun lobby and some of its supporter hold up their sleeve, there will be no bridging the gulf between those who support common sense gun policies and the more strident and militant gun forces.

    And yes, I taught history and government for 33 years and know all about how the USA got started and some of the motives for the Founders. Yes - I know them and accept them. And it does not change my opinion on this one iota jot or tittle.
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  4. #654
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    I have already posted one thread in regards to the mass shootings, trying to bring together ideas on the most effective way to slow gun related violence and try to eliminate these mass shootings.

    This poll is more black and white because I am simply wondering would you be in favor of more gun control if it had the potential to reduce violence.
    Other: If it were proven to actually work, my answer would be yes. I think the current restrictions are adequate with the possible exception of barring the (registered) mentally ill from purchasing. Previous bans have shown no decrease in firearm related deaths.

  5. #655
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Oh but I think that is exactly the issue. You are not a cop. To pretend that the standards and equipment needs that apply to them as professional police officers apply to civilians is simply not a solid argument.

    That is a difference and I suspect most people recognize that difference. You are NOT fighting criminals the way police are. You are NOT in the same environment they are as officers performing their duties.

    And I think this is what divides so many people on this issue.

    I have said this many times: I support the right of a person and the need of a person to have a firearm for personal defense, home defense, business defense, hunting, target shooting, competition use, and other such uses. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Americans do as well. Outside of the most extreme anti-gun people, I really see no movement to change this.

    I do not support people having armories. I do not support people having military weapons that have large capacity magazines. I do not support people having automatic weapons.

    HONEST QUESTION FOR YOU TURTLE: much of this then comes down to the idea that somehow someday you are going to need your armory or your weapons to do battle with the police and armed forces of the nation in some sort of armed resistance to tyranny. And that is why you want all this stuff to put you on the same level with the police and military.

    If you want to believe that, it is your right to believe that. I think it borders on serious mental delusion that smacks of paranoia. But that is just my opinion.

    The point is that as long as that is the ace card the gun lobby and some of its supporter hold up their sleeve, there will be no bridging the gulf between those who support common sense gun policies and the more strident and militant gun forces.

    And yes, I taught history and government for 33 years and know all about how the USA got started and some of the motives for the Founders. Yes - I know them and accept them. And it does not change my opinion on this one iota jot or tittle.
    Why do we have nukes? Deterent.

    Why do citizen have arms? Deterent

    /story
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  6. #656
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Why do we have nukes? Deterent.

    Why do citizen have arms? Deterent

    /story
    Why do you reproduce my writings and then not speak to a single thing in it but simply pretend to use it to make some statement which adds nothing to the issues raised in that same post?
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  7. #657
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "High-capacity ammunition magazines are the common thread that runs through most mass shootings: giving attackers the ability to fire numerous bullets without reloading. Last week's attack in Arizona joins a long list of mass shootings made possible by the easy availability of high-capacity ammunition magazines: Columbine, Virginia Tech, Luby's, Stockton, and all too many others.

    Earlier this week, Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) and Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) announced plans to introduce federal legislation to ban high-capacity ammunition magazines. A similar ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines was in place for 10 years as part of the now-expired federal assault weapons ban.

    Here are just 10 of the U.S. mass shootings that involved high-capacity ammunition magazines."

    Josh Sugarmann: 10 U.S. Mass Shootings Involving High-Capacity Ammunition Magazines (Slide Show)
    So there's 10 such cases. Good for you. Now it'd need the other end of the equation I placed forth....how many have been sold.

    If the number is around 10, then your assertion is correct....banning them would only largely infringe upon those seeking to use them to shoot bunches of innocent people. If the number is in the thousands, then you're absolutely wrong, and the people being largely infringed are law abiding citizens who are having their liberty reduced in the name of little real additional security.

  8. #658
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Oh but I think that is exactly the issue. You are not a cop. To pretend that the standards and equipment needs that apply to them as professional police officers apply to civilians is simply not a solid argument.

    That is a difference and I suspect most people recognize that difference. You are NOT fighting criminals the way police are. You are NOT in the same environment they are as officers performing their duties.

    And I think this is what divides so many people on this issue.

    I have said this many times: I support the right of a person and the need of a person to have a firearm for personal defense, home defense, business defense, hunting, target shooting, competition use, and other such uses. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Americans do as well. Outside of the most extreme anti-gun people, I really see no movement to change this.

    I do not support people having armories. I do not support people having military weapons that have large capacity magazines. I do not support people having automatic weapons.

    HONEST QUESTION FOR YOU TURTLE: much of this then comes down to the idea that somehow someday you are going to need your armory or your weapons to do battle with the police and armed forces of the nation in some sort of armed resistance to tyranny. And that is why you want all this stuff to put you on the same level with the police and military.

    If you want to believe that, it is your right to believe that. I think it borders on serious mental delusion that smacks of paranoia. But that is just my opinion.

    The point is that as long as that is the ace card the gun lobby and some of its supporter hold up their sleeve, there will be no bridging the gulf between those who support common sense gun policies and the more strident and militant gun forces.

    And yes, I taught history and government for 33 years and know all about how the USA got started and some of the motives for the Founders. Yes - I know them and accept them. And it does not change my opinion on this one iota jot or tittle.
    More than "like", Haymarket, but "love".
    Extremely well written, I agree 100%.
    But, strangle, I admit, we must work on limiting those potential gun owners to 100% sane and stable men and women AND the FAMILIES.
    This is one tough assignment...much easier is the banning of rapid fire assault weapons....simply reinstate the law that was repealed by gun lovers a generation ago....... with special exemptions ?? for Dick Tracy, aka TurtleDude ???
    He seems to forget one thing about guns.....Well trained cops are trained in how NOT to use the deadly weapon...is our Turtle trained the same way ???

  9. #659
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    More than "like", Haymarket, but "love".
    Extremely well written, I agree 100%.
    But, strangle, I admit, we must work on limiting those potential gun owners to 100% sane and stable men and women AND the FAMILIES.
    This is one tough assignment...much easier is the banning of rapid fire assault weapons....simply reinstate the law that was repealed by gun lovers a generation ago....... with special exemptions ?? for Dick Tracy, aka TurtleDude ???
    He seems to forget one thing about guns.....Well trained cops are trained in how NOT to use the deadly weapon...is our Turtle trained the same way ???
    Thank you for the very kind and supportive words.

    I suspect that Turtle does indeed have a great deal of knowledge and skill in both the use of weapons as well as in the exercise of proper judgment about when to use them. I do not question or doubt this for a moment. Having said that, we do not make policy or law for the individual who may well be the exception to the rule. As such, the needs of a professional police officer are vastly different than the needs of a civilian.

    We have to learn how to protect the needs of our civilians and at the same time shape the kind of society we want to live in so that we can get some sort of handle on these issues plaguing us as people and as a nation.
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  10. #660
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Why do we have nukes? Deterent.

    Why do citizen have arms? Deterent

    /story
    Strange reasoning.....but maybe not, from a conservative...
    IMO, its far better to have the police armed than every citizen....
    You equate "citizens" with highly reponsible national leaders ??
    Yes, Russia....they could have, but never did....nor did we....
    But, of course, many citizens do need added protection...but not to the extent of making a war out of this "personal security".

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