View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1531
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Brother, I deal with the government for a living and what you see as "ridiculous" I see as a trend.

    Let me give you an example. This past year Karen Hawkins (The director of the IRS Office of Professional Responsibility) implied that tax returns filed under Married Filing Joint status might subject a paid preparer to penalties for violating conflict of interest rules. That probably doesn't mean anything to you but the basic implication is that, from the government standpoint, married couples are presumed to have an adversarial relationship. I'd consider that to be a rather significant presumption because if married couples can be presumed to be adversaries (legally speaking) then unmarried couples must be even more adversarial. Taking that one step farther it would be an indication that, as a starting point, the government must consider each individual to have an adversarial relationship with every other individual.

    Now, when we look at other parts of the government we find that there is a common meme that people organized as a corporation have an adversarial relationship those who are not so organized. We see constant indications that management and labor are treated as having adversarial relationships and we see that gun owners are treated as having adversarial relationships with non gun owners.

    Our current administration has very deftly chopped up our population into various groups that all are "out to get" one another. The wealthy are trying to take advantage of the middle class; the whites are trying to take advantage of the blacks and the hispanics; the heterosexuals are trying to take advantage of the homosexuals; and so on and so forth. And with all this animosity somebody must be the "grand uniter"....so enters the government to "save" us all from ourselves.

    I find it to be a horrifically warped view of society yet so many Americans seem to be buying in to the ideology that it can no longer be ignored. That outlook used to be a fringe thing but it is moving more and more into the mainstream. It is the sowing of seeds of hatred and it is being perpetuated by a government which is gathering more and more dependents than it ever has before.


    There is an axiom in life that applies here......"The only difference between a paranoid and a prophet is how things turn out" so call me paranoid if you wish but I have given a good bit of consideration to my position and I'm quite comfortable with it.
    I agree with you with many of the things you say here. I have said in some of the posts that I have made that the very division of our society based on political beliefs is tearing this country apart. No one identifies themselves as an American. We all have our own selfish labels with our own selfish agenda's. Everyone has personal rights that no one else can tread on and their rights are more important than other's rights. Even if that means they tread on others rights to defend their own. Our society has many underlying cancers that are slowly growing. Firstly, the feminist and women's rights groups have torn this country to pieces. I am not advocating that women should not have the right to vote or work, or be dependent from men. But, they have taken it much further than that. The destruction of the family is a creation of this feminist movement. And the destruction of the family and the denigration of men in our society is leaving many men confused and angry. Add to that, the wide and easy access to guns and you have a fireball that that turns into a devastating explosion.

    The answer to this problem is not more guns. The manifesto that you have laid out and your contention that gun ownership is mandatory as a result is exactly what causes people to freak out and shoot up government buildings. That is not the answer. The answer is not guns, it is public debate and democratic reforms.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  2. #1532
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I agree with you with many of the things you say here. I have said in some of the posts that I have made that the very division of our society based on political beliefs is tearing this country apart. No one identifies themselves as an American. We all have our own selfish labels with our own selfish agenda's. Everyone has personal rights that no one else can tread on and their rights are more important than other's rights. Even if that means they tread on others rights to defend their own. Our society has many underlying cancers that are slowly growing. Firstly, the feminist and women's rights groups have torn this country to pieces. I am not advocating that women should not have the right to vote or work, or be dependent from men. But, they have taken it much further than that. The destruction of the family is a creation of this feminist movement. And the destruction of the family and the denigration of men in our society is leaving many men confused and angry. Add to that, the wide and easy access to guns and you have a fireball that that turns into a devastating explosion.

    The answer to this problem is not more guns. The manifesto that you have laid out and your contention that gun ownership is mandatory as a result is exactly what causes people to freak out and shoot up government buildings. That is not the answer. The answer is not guns, it is public debate and democratic reforms.
    I have never said that gun ownership is mandatory nor would I agree that it should be. My contention is, and always has been, that the right to keep and bear arms is not something which should be infringed upon.

    In your post you imply that easy access to firearms, along with other factors, is a recipe for a "fireball" and I totally disagree with that. Though there may come a time where "fireballs" and guns coexist (there has been in the past) it isn't the access to those firearms that will create that event. It will, as it always is, be a long train of abuses by those in power that ignites the flame. There will be disagreement as to who fires the first shot and, also as is the case throughout history, the victors will be the ones who decide how the stories will be told.


    -edit-

    Perhaps you should watch this video clip from today -
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8004316/ns/video/#50332026

    Right around the 3:30 point Obama talks about the agreement to raise the top marginal tax rates on the "wealthy" and make them permanent. This comment elicited applause from the audience even though such an increase would do next to nothing to offset the current federal deficit. In fact the increase wouldn't generate enough revenue to pay even 0.4% of our annual federal spending so it can be considered as being nothing more than a putative measure taken by the government against the top earners in this country....yet, the man gets applause for this.

    It's disgusting and it's anti-liberty and it's anti-American.
    Last edited by Lutherf; 12-31-12 at 09:42 PM.

  3. #1533
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I can only have an opinion if I have had a truck explode in front of me?
    Or a comparable experience, yes, because then you know just how little control you have.

  4. #1534
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I have never said that gun ownership is mandatory nor would I agree that it should be. My contention is, and always has been, that the right to keep and bear arms is not something which should be infringed upon.

    In your post you imply that easy access to firearms, along with other factors, is a recipe for a "fireball" and I totally disagree with that. Though there may come a time where "fireballs" and guns coexist (there has been in the past) it isn't the access to those firearms that will create that event. It will, as it always is, be a long train of abuses by those in power that ignites the flame. There will be disagreement as to who fires the first shot and, also as is the case throughout history, the victors will be the ones who decide how the stories will be told.
    Then that is where I would disagree. I think several examples of this have already been spotlighted with the recent flurry of mass shootings over the last decade. Most of these shootings were perpetrated by unstable young men who were having some kind of identity issues. Most of which were a result of dysfunctional or even non intervening parents who had no idea what their kids were doing because they were all to busy working and making money. Many of the parents of these kids were surprised that their kid could have carried out such an act. Yet a simple investigation around the house and in the kids room would have allowed the parents to discover the massive storing of weapons, ammunition and writings.

    The inner city violence is a result of a combination of poverty and broken family structure. Inner city violence is further aggravated by easy access to guns.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  5. #1535
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Then that is where I would disagree. I think several examples of this have already been spotlighted with the recent flurry of mass shootings over the last decade. Most of these shootings were perpetrated by unstable young men who were having some kind of identity issues. Most of which were a result of dysfunctional or even non intervening parents who had no idea what their kids were doing because they were all to busy working and making money. Many of the parents of these kids were surprised that their kid could have carried out such an act. Yet a simple investigation around the house and in the kids room would have allowed the parents to discover the massive storing of weapons, ammunition and writings.

    The inner city violence is a result of a combination of poverty and broken family structure. Inner city violence is further aggravated by easy access to guns.
    IN reality the war on drugs and the welfare system is what causes the major issues

    and if banning drugs has only caused massive amounts of crime what do you think a ban on guns is gonna do we already have the black market for guns in the inner cities-often areas where there are no legal gun dealers

    you want that all over the nation

  6. #1536
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Or a comparable experience, yes, because then you know just how little control you have.
    I have experienced mortar attacks, does that count?
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  7. #1537
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Then that is where I would disagree. I think several examples of this have already been spotlighted with the recent flurry of mass shootings over the last decade. Most of these shootings were perpetrated by unstable young men who were having some kind of identity issues. Most of which were a result of dysfunctional or even non intervening parents who had no idea what their kids were doing because they were all to busy working and making money. Many of the parents of these kids were surprised that their kid could have carried out such an act. Yet a simple investigation around the house and in the kids room would have allowed the parents to discover the massive storing of weapons, ammunition and writings.

    The inner city violence is a result of a combination of poverty and broken family structure. Inner city violence is further aggravated by easy access to guns.
    So the problem is parenting, family values and community values, not guns.

    Keep this in mind too, these ambush shootings are taking place more and more often in "gun free" zones where the shooters know that they will not have any interference. Those "gun free" zones were established to protect people but if damned sure looks like they are becoming a magnet for psychos.

  8. #1538
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    So the problem is parenting, family values and community values, not guns.

    Keep this in mind too, these ambush shootings are taking place more and more often in "gun free" zones where the shooters know that they will not have any interference. Those "gun free" zones were established to protect people but if damned sure looks like they are becoming a magnet for psychos.
    Yes, and many of these ambush shootings occur with illegal firearms purchased or stolen from legal owners. And yes, the problem does start with parenting and family values. Unfortunately in our current state, while both men and women are working, their kids are left with strangers or with no one at all and have to figure out things on their own. Empty and influencial young minds are easily corrupted. I don't see a solution to the parenting issue coming anytime soon. Until society steps back from the hole they have been digging for the last 40 years, we will not fix the issue. In fact, I think feminists have got us so deep into the holes they have been digging, we can't climb out of them. It is nearly impossible for the average person to live on a 1 person income and support a family. This is a direct result of the women's rights movement. There are no longer many women around who would be willing to stay at home and take care of the kids, nor are there women willing to marry down in status or financial wealth to allow a man to sit around the house and take care of the kids. Women statistically marry up as they dont respect a man that earns significantly less than her. That makes it nearly impossible for a family to have at least one parent at home raising the kids. It is something we cant go back to. We will never go back to the 50's values as we have gone to far in the opposite direction and people look down on that kind of society now.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  9. #1539
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    So the problem is parenting, family values and community values, not guns.

    Keep this in mind too, these ambush shootings are taking place more and more often in "gun free" zones where the shooters know that they will not have any interference. Those "gun free" zones were established to protect people but if damned sure looks like they are becoming a magnet for psychos.
    many gun control advocates seem to believe that those who commit robbery rape and murder will somehow obey gun laws

  10. #1540
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Yes, and many of these ambush shootings occur with illegal firearms purchased or stolen from legal owners. And yes, the problem does start with parenting and family values. Unfortunately in our current state, while both men and women are working, their kids are left with strangers or with no one at all and have to figure out things on their own. Empty and influencial young minds are easily corrupted. I don't see a solution to the parenting issue coming anytime soon. Until society steps back from the hole they have been digging for the last 40 years, we will not fix the issue. In fact, I think feminists have got us so deep into the holes they have been digging, we can't climb out of them. It is nearly impossible for the average person to live on a 1 person income and support a family. This is a direct result of the women's rights movement. There are no longer many women around who would be willing to stay at home and take care of the kids, nor are there women willing to marry down in status or financial wealth to allow a man to sit around the house and take care of the kids. Women statistically marry up as they dont respect a man that earns significantly less than her. That makes it nearly impossible for a family to have at least one parent at home raising the kids. It is something we cant go back to. We will never go back to the 50's values as we have gone to far in the opposite direction and people look down on that kind of society now.
    It's not that difficult of a fix (as much as it will ever be fixed since these aren't exactly new developments).

    If there is one thing we can do to stem some of this insanity it is to back away from the government policies which enable this kind of behavior. We have spent so much time, energy and money on trying to mitigate the consequences of bad decisions that those consequences barely even exist.

    Yeah, feminists and tree huggers and "social welfare" pimps and race baiters have all had an impact but they wouldn't have that impact if government just learned how to say "NO". The only reason that these groups have been able to have an impact is because they have managed to talk some congressman of senator into pushing a bill which "helps" some poor, dowtrodden "victim of society". Government can and probably should provide a helping hand to those who have hit rock bottom or taken one on the chin but that "help" should be just enough to get the "injured" back up and running, not so much that it becomes a liveable alternative to personal responsibility.

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