View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1411
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I did not realize that Bloomberg was a member here and posted.

    As for you demonstrating lies - you have repeatedly and frequently stated that i do not state my position. I have repeatedly and frequently stated my position on the Second Amendment.

    Why do you keep persisting in the very word you used - LIES - about that?

    I realize its easier to battle a cartoon strawman of your own creation than it is to deal with the subtle and complex intracies of a real person with a real position that defies traditional stereotyping. But that indeed is your challenge.
    did you read what I said. I said the posters here and THE POLITICIANS THEY SUPPORT

  2. #1412
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    Re: Gun Control

    as to lies-one poster claimed that gun shows are where criminals get most of their guns

    try this on for size if you believe that

    Gun Control - Just Facts

    A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends

  3. #1413
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Actually you could go back and read all of that -its called the legislative history-as well as the news reports that were written about the bill's passage

    I know what the facts are, I really don't care if you were not aware of the facts surrounding the debate over the background check

    and most of the people who actually understand this issue and make it a priority to understand the issue before arguing about it know I am correct
    It is your job to back up any claims and allegations of fact you make with verifiable evidence. That is always the way debate works. It is incumbent upon the maker of the claim to back it up when challenged.

    And you are FAILING to do that.

    If you continue to FAIL to do that, then your claims and allegations of fact are worthless.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #1414
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    did you read what I said. I said the posters here and THE POLITICIANS THEY SUPPORT
    Baloney. I do not intentionally misrepresent your positions here and I would respectfully ask that you not intentionally misrepresent mine. I speak for me. I do not speak or defend anybody in elected office. So please do not pretend otherwise.

    You want to attack people here for their views? Then present their views. Attacking some politician somebody may vote for is really rather lame instead of speaking directly to the views of the poster.

    Of course, when one intentionally engages in perverting and distorting the actual views of the poster, and cannot defend that underhanded tactic, it then becomes easier to attack a surrogate for them who cannot defend themselves.

    That is blatantly intellectually dishonest as well as has no part in actual debate.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-29-12 at 02:04 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #1415
    Sometimes wrong

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    as to lies-one poster claimed that gun shows are where criminals get most of their guns

    try this on for size if you believe that

    Gun Control - Just Facts

    A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends
    Instead of foolish concentration on where criminals get their tools, and seeking a tool ban, why not permanently take violent criminals out of society? The poster child for gun control is usually a mass murdering (often deceased) mentally challenged (is that PC enough?) person. Why can't we stick to reality an use a young, urban (often minority), uneducated punk that has commited prior (often violent) criminal offenses? Carreer criminals are reponsible for most crime (gun or no gun), yet are allowed by "compassionate" folks to serve very little (if any) time for those criminal acts.

    http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/content...df/PSATSFV.PDF

    http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp.pdf

    Council on Crime and Justice

    Given the slant of the following Pew study, incuded for "fairness", it is still, IMHO, insane the the average violent offense incarceration time is now only five years.

    http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFil...ime_Served.pdf
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #1416
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is your job to back up any claims and allegations of fact you make with verifiable evidence. That is always the way debate works. It is incumbent upon the maker of the claim to back it up when challenged.

    And you are FAILING to do that.

    If you continue to FAIL to do that, then your claims and allegations of fact are worthless.

    NO I can do what I want and I clearly state what my position is and why

    No one has come close to proving anything I have asserted is in error

    and I should note that I do not avoid topics or fail to take stands on this issue

  7. #1417
    Only Losers H8 Capitalism
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    NO I can do what I want and I clearly state what my position is and why

    No one has come close to proving anything I have asserted is in error

    and I should note that I do not avoid topics or fail to take stands on this issue
    Whenever he's saying you failed to do something, that means you're spot on.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  8. #1418
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    NO I can do what I want and I clearly state what my position is and why

    No one has come close to proving anything I have asserted is in error

    and I should note that I do not avoid topics or fail to take stands on this issue
    Your error is in intentionally, deliberately and purposely grossly lying about what my position is and then attacking that false position. You claim freedom to do so? Go for it. But it will be exposed each and every time.

    News bulletin: nobody in the history of the world nor this site takes a position on EVERYTHING.

    What confounds some here is that my position is not what they want it to be so it fits into their preconceived notions and standard talking points. They simply do not know what to do with it.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #1419
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    its so obvious to us who understand the issue how completely dishonest the ARC is on these topics

    they refuse to state their real goals because it would alarm lots of people who are LIVs or are not really rigorous thinkers. Their goal is to give the government (their wellspring) and criminals (people they often identify with) a complete monopoly on firearms
    I'd like to see one of them address the question of how any universal background check scheme would be implemented or enforced. Let's say that federal agents raid a home and find a gun. How do they know whether or not the owner had a background check performed on him prior to being given that particular gun?

    The fact that they rant about wanting registration but are impotent to explain exactly how such a scheme would actually work is very telling indeed.

  10. #1420
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Whenever he's saying you failed to do something, that means you're spot on.
    It is cute that you provide a shoulder for support. It would be more helpful if you actually had an idea of what you were supporting and could provide some evidence of that.

    Allow me to guide you through.

    1- Turtle made a claim of fact that congressmen who voted for the gun show loophole did so for certain reasons. 1401
    2- I challenged him to provide some verifiable evidence for this. 1404
    3- he failed to do so instead going on the attack. 1407
    4- I pointed this out and asked for the verifiable evidence. 1408
    5- you jumped in to support that he did something that I said he failed to do. 1417

    So now all you have to do is provide the post number in which Turtle did indeed provide the verifiable evidence of his claim of fact to back up your so far hollow support.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-29-12 at 03:02 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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