View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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    87 42.65%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1201
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We do now have limited government. We always have had limited government. There is no issue here to complain about.
    what we have is a massive expansion beyond the limits intended by those who created the constitution and those expansions were not done properly-ie by amendments but rather by dishonest interpretations

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what we have is a massive expansion beyond the limits intended by those who created the constitution and those expansions were not done properly-ie by amendments but rather by dishonest interpretations
    That is an opinion. It is not fact.

    What is fact is that we have a limited government.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And what you just wrote proves that I am correct. There indeed can be what some consider as incremental encroachments that insist constitute the right has been INFRINGED but that has not been the agreement of many many courts and justices over our long history. Thus, the idea that some have pushed here that the meaning of INFRINGED is something as small as HINDER is ridiculous and not supported by reality.
    Not at all. Infringement originally meant to break, damage, or violate.

    infringe (v.) mid-15c., enfrangen, "to violate," from L. infringere "to damage, break off, break, bruise," from in- "in" (see in- (2)) + frangere "to break" (see fraction). Meaning of "encroach" first recorded c.1760. Related: Infringed; infringing.
    Online Etymology Dictionary

    Or in other words, to change. There is little doubt that the 2nd has been changed over the years since its conception.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Not at all. Infringement originally meant to break, damage, or violate.

    infringe (v.) mid-15c., enfrangen, "to violate," from L. infringere "to damage, break off, break, bruise," from in- "in" (see in- (2)) + frangere "to break" (see fraction). Meaning of "encroach" first recorded c.1760. Related: Infringed; infringing.
    Online Etymology Dictionary

    Or in other words, to change. There is little doubt that the 2nd has been changed over the years since its conception.
    And you seemed to be doing well until you had to goof it all up with your OR IN OTHER WORDS. The words from the definitions agree with 1828 Webster's as I have reproduced many times in several threads now.

    For the right to be INFRINGED it must be BROKEN or DESTROYED. One cannot enjoy a right while having it INFRINGED at the same time as they are mutually exclusive and cannot happen at the same time with the same right.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And you seemed to be doing well until you had to goof it all up with your OR IN OTHER WORDS. The words from the definitions agree with 1828 Webster's as I have reproduced many times in several threads now.

    For the right to be INFRINGED it must be BROKEN or DESTROYED. One cannot enjoy a right while having it INFRINGED at the same time as they are mutually exclusive and cannot happen at the same time with the same right.
    "violate" and "damage" do not mean destroyed, so your assumption is not well-founded.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    "violate" and "damage" do not mean destroyed, so your assumption is not well-founded.
    The definition I provided clearly indicated that INFRINGED involved negating or breaking or destroying or contravening the right to keep and bear arms.

    Websters 1828 dictionary


    infringe

    INFRINGE, v.t. infrinj'. [L. infringo; in and frango,to break. See Break.]

    1. To break, as contracts; to violate, either positively by contravention, or negatively by non-fulfillment or neglect of performance. A prince or a private person infringes an agreement or covenant by neglecting to perform its conditions, as well as by doing what is stipulated not to be done.
    2. To break; to violate; to transgress; to neglect to fulfill or obey; as, to infringe a law.
    3. To destroy or hinder; as, to infringe efficacy. [Little used.]
    Simply put, incremental encroachments are not damage or violations that rise to the level of being INFRINGED.

    Or to think of it in a very practical way - you cannot both have your right INFRINGED if you are at the same time enjoying your right to keep an bear arms.

    As I have said many times and not one person has shown otherwise, there are countless things that have been legislated regarding placing restrictions or limits on firearms and they are perfectly legal within the scope of the Second Amendment. The most zealous of gun lobby supporters can indeed judge them to be incremental encroachhments but that does not rise to the level of having your rights INFRINGED as the Second Amendment states.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-26-12 at 02:35 PM.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The definition I provided clearly indicated that INFRINGED involved negating or breaking or destroying or contravening the right to keep and bear arms.

    Websters 1828 dictionary
    I think I'm more inclined to going with an etymology source than a dictionary from after the document in question was written. Being that the word infringe can mean to violate or damage, an easy comparison, in human action terms, might be the rape of a woman. When a woman is raped, it violates her, and damages her. It changes the way she perceives herself, as she was prior to her being violated. Violation and damage are not equal to destruction.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I think I'm more inclined to going with an etymology source than a dictionary from after the document in question was written. Being that the word infringe can mean to violate or damage, an easy comparison, in human action terms, might be the rape of a woman. When a woman is raped, it violates her, and damages her. It changes the way she perceives herself, as she was prior to her being violated. Violation and damage are not equal to destruction.
    You are confusing apples with cinderblocks. That will only cause you to chip your teeth on the hard grey pie filling.

    Your words fit your example of a rape of a woman. It does not fit with the Second Amendment nor the meaning of the term INFRINGED at the time. To pretend that it is some absolute that cannot be regulated or controlled by government makes it an absolute that defies reality. There have been many incremental encroachments that are perfectly legal and perfectly still protecting the basic right. To define it the way you ant to define it betrays the experience of the last 225 years and defies reality as we know it with this right.
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    Re: Gun Control

    One of the more bogus arguments is a claim that if you once engaged in activity that theoretically is protected by the second amendment, then future attempts to curtail other activities that should be protected by said amendments do no deprive you of your rights

    its akin to throwing a newspaper editorial writer in jail because he said Obama is a turd and the prosecutor noting that for 4 years he wrote articles saying Obama was a turd but the latest editorial is illegal

    or the government telling anyone who owns "controversial books" that they cannot obtain other banned books

    there is not term of use on the second amendment nor do you use up your rights by frequent exercise thereof

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are confusing apples with cinderblocks. That will only cause you to chip your teeth on the hard grey pie filling.

    Your words fit your example of a rape of a woman. It does not fit with the Second Amendment nor the meaning of the term INFRINGED at the time.
    Words have meanings, as I believe I recall you saying several times on this very forum. The word infringe did not mean merely "destroy" at the time of the founding of the country. As for the rape comparison, it is perfectly legitimate as a comparison. When something is damaged or violated, it does not imply destruction, whether we are talking about guns or people.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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