View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1131
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Those are two possible definitions. There is a third as well. What evidence do you have that those, and not the third, are what the founders meant?
    Because the definitions are presented in order of common usage and the one.... sorry - the small portion of the one you cling to - #3 is clearly labeled as LITTLE USED showing that the Founders would far more than likely not be familiar with or if they opted to ignore the more common usage and focus on obscure usage - they most likely would have clarified it with additional or better yet different language altogether is that was their meaning.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #1132
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But your screed utterly fails since I have never expressed support for such bans.

    All I am trying to do is to educate people on American History and the meaning of words as used in American History.

    The rest of what you accuse me of seems to be the creation of your own imagination.
    Simply present your evidence that the founders intended your particular chosen definition for infringed.

  3. #1133
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes indeed. Just like yesterday's digested baloney.
    AHHHH. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I am touched. However, we still have this to consider which overrides any imitative effort at cleverness

    Focusing on the word HINDER as the key word in the definition of the word INFRINGE only is valid if one intentionally ignores the complete and utter finality of the most common used term at the time - definition #1 with its definitive words.

    1. To break, as contracts; to violate, either positively by contravention, or negatively by non-fulfillment or neglect of performance. A prince or a private person infringes an agreement or covenant by neglecting to perform its conditions, as well as by doing what is stipulated not to be done.
    And then only if one compounds that error of intellectual fraud by then ignoring the second most common usage of the term at the time - #2 with its definitive words.


    2. To break; to violate; to transgress; to neglect to fulfill or obey; as, to infringe a law.
    And then only if one even further decides to become even ore egregious in their commission of intellectual fraud and ignore the first half of the term that precedes the word HINDER which is TO DESTROY.


    3. To destroy or hinder; as, to infringe efficacy. [Little used.]
    And then to compound this grand felony of high intellectual fraud, one must conveniently ignore the phrase placed in the brackets after that definition #3

    [Little used.]
    Yes Federalist... what you have given us is baloney indeed!!!!!
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #1134
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Because the definitions are presented in order of common usage and the one.... sorry - the small portion of the one you cling to - #3 is clearly labeled as LITTLE USED showing that the Founders would far more than likely not be familiar with or if they opted to ignore the more common usage and focus on obscure usage - they most likely would have clarified it with additional or better yet different language altogether is that was their meaning.
    bottom line

    magazine restrictions
    waiting periods
    banning bayonet lugs or flash hiders
    limitations on how many firearms an honest person can purchase in a given day, week or month
    training requirements

    etc are INFRINGEMENTS on our rights to keep and bear arms
    those who want citizens disarmed support those infringements

    nothing more nothing less so why waste so much time on evasive attempts to pretend that the term infringement doesn't mean what everyone else knows it means

  5. #1135
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Because the definitions are presented in order of common usage and the one.... sorry - the small portion of the one you cling to - #3 is clearly labeled as LITTLE USED showing that the Founders would far more than likely not be familiar with or if they opted to ignore the more common usage and focus on obscure usage - they most likely would have clarified it with additional or better yet different language altogether is that was their meaning.
    Okay, simply present your evidence that this is not the definition that the founders had in mind and we will all be convinced.

  6. #1136
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    bottom line



    nothing more nothing less so why waste so much time on evasive attempts to pretend that the term infringement doesn't mean what everyone else knows it means
    "what everyone else knows it means"!?!?!?!?!?!?

    This is the peg you hang your hat on? "what everyone else knows it means"!!!!!!

    Amazing.

    If you are correct, if Federalist is correct, and if we can discard 95% of the definition of the word INFRINGED used at the time and focus narrowly on one word HINDEr that was admittedly "little used" at the time, then any incremental step taken by government to do anything less than allow every citizen the right to have any arm they wanted would be the only reasonable conclusion. After all, if you are right, any incremental encroachment is a violation of the Constitution. No weapon could be barred, banned,forbidden. No step could be taken which slows down or impedes a citizen in any way shape or form regarding their own personal choice about a weapons and its use.

    Aside from the overwhelming evidence from the rest of the 95% of the definition in use at the time - aside from that - there is just one little problem that you and Federalist have in that insistence. 225 years of American History. Your view that any incremental encroachment constitutes an infringement has NEVER EVER been in action in any way shape or form in this nation. Your view is a fantasy that bears no relationship to the real world of the past 225 years ofAmerican history.

    So not only does the definition of the day not support you - but neither does the experience of American history and 225 years of American jurisprudence.

    You end up with nothing aside only your self imposed ideological beliefs because you want to believe them.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #1137
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    "what everyone else knows it means"!?!?!?!?!?!?

    This is the peg you hang your hat on? "what everyone else knows it means"!!!!!!

    Amazing.

    If you are correct, if Federalist is correct, and if we can discard 95% of the definition of the word INFRINGED used at the time and focus narrowly on one word HINDEr that was admittedly "little used" at the time, then any incremental step taken by government to do anything less than allow every citizen the right to have any arm they wanted would be the only reasonable conclusion. After all, if you are right, any incremental encroachment is a violation of the Constitution. No weapon could be barred, banned,forbidden. No step could be taken which slows down or impedes a citizen in any way shape or form regarding their own personal choice about a weapons and its use.

    Aside from the overwhelming evidence from the rest of the 95% of the definition in use at the time - aside from that - there is just one little problem that you and Federalist have in that insistence. 225 years of American History. Your view that any incremental encroachment constitutes an infringement has NEVER EVER been in action in any way shape or form in this nation. Your view is a fantasy that bears no relationship to the real world of the past 225 years ofAmerican history.

    So not only does the definition of the day not support you - but neither does the experience of American history and 225 years of American jurisprudence.

    You end up with nothing aside only your self imposed ideological beliefs because you want to believe them.
    You steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence of which definition the founders intended.

    That leaves us having to accept what in reality is nothing more than your (somewhat idiosyncratic) opinion on the subject.

  8. #1138
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    Re: Gun Control

    tell me Haymarket, if the founders want congress the power to INFRINGE (hinder, delay etc) our rights why was that power never delegated on congress in the constitution and why did the patron saint of the nanny state government worshippers have to engage in a dishonest mutation of the commerce clause to "find" that power?

  9. #1139
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Okay, simply present your evidence that this is not the definition that the founders had in mind and we will all be convinced.
    I have already presented you with the evidence.

    Are you laboring under the delusion the the men who wrote the Constitution were not also men of their time and place and what applied to all other people of their day somehow and someway did not apply to them?

    Are you laboring under the delusion that the most common of word meanings somehow someway escaped them in favor of some obscure meaning which was LITTLE USED at the time?

    It appears that if you want to pretend that
    1- the most common usages of a word were not indeed used by the founders, and
    2- they employed the use of word meaning that were LITTLE USED at the time in some sort of alternative linguistic reality divorced from the rest of the nation

    then the responsibility is totally and completely upon you to show the exception to the rule. Otherwise you are attempting to flip the script and that is not how things work.

    You want to pretend that the normal usage of terms in that era of history was not applicable to the men who wrote the document, by all means do so.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #1140
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    tell me Haymarket, if the founders want congress the power to INFRINGE (hinder, delay etc) our rights why was that power never delegated on congress in the constitution and why did the patron saint of the nanny state government worshippers have to engage in a dishonest mutation of the commerce clause to "find" that power?
    I have no idea what you are talking about. They gave plenty of powers to COngress in the Constitution which apply to this issue. Plenty of them.

    We have been through this before and you know darn well about Article I, Section 8.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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