View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

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  • Yes

    87 42.65%
  • No

    102 50.00%
  • Others

    15 7.35%
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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1071
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    What about people who can't be honest with how they feel about an issue and constantly side track discussions with a lot of stupid distractions and arguments? That really does bother me.

    I see nobody who posts on this topic that is not taking a position. Perhaps you simply do not understand that position or are confused because it is different than yours? Positions that do not conform to traditional orthodoxy may be unsettling to those who follow the crowd.
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  2. #1072
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see nobody who posts on this topic that is not taking a position. Perhaps you simply do not understand that position or are confused because it is different than yours? Positions that do not conform to traditional orthodoxy may be unsettling to those who follow the crowd.
    Seriously? I have YET to see a position taken by you. Why don't you spell out YOUR position on the Second Amendment and what exactly that "allows" us citizens?

    You seem to think that you're fooling people, but you are actually only making a fool of yourself.

  3. #1073
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Seriously? I have YET to see a position taken by you. Why don't you spell out YOUR position on the Second Amendment and what exactly that "allows" us citizens?

    You seem to think that you're fooling people, but you are actually only making a fool of yourself.
    I have repeatedly. I suspect that true believers only want to know one of two things: do you prostrate yourself before the same altar and worship the same gods as I do? Or not? Real life complications such as nuance of position escape them, confuse them, frustrate them and cause them to become angry. So when they cannot place someone in a neat little compartment that their limited mind can handle, they become irritable and attack what escapes their limited understanding.

    It is sad but it is simply part of life.

    My position on the Second Amendment has always been crystal clear. I am a strong supporter of the US Constitution and that includes the Second Amendment. You ask me what does it "allow US citizens"? I imagine many would object to the your use of the word allow. However, going with you in spirit, I would state does not allow anything specifically other than one important protection: it prevents the federal government from having your right to keep an bear arms INFRINGED by them.

    As you well know because you participated in it, we have had an exhaustive and most thorough discussion about what that word means. And using authoritative sources from the era of the writing and adoption of the Amendment that are expert in the meaning and usage of words, I have provided you and the board with a very exact meaning of the word INFRINGED.

    It means that the government cannot defeat, break, contravene or destroy your right.

    That is what the second amendment "allows US citizens"..... as you put it.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-24-12 at 09:14 AM.
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  4. #1074
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My position on the Second Amendment has always been crystal clear. I am a strong supporter of the US Constitution and that includes the Second Amendment. You ask me what does it "allow US citizens"? I imagine many would object to the your use of the word allow. However, going with you in spirit, I would state does not allow anything specifically other than one important protection: it prevents the federal government from having your right to keep an bear arms INFRINGED by them.

    As you well know because you participated in it, we have had an exhaustive and most thorough discussion about what that word means. And using authoritative sources from the era of the writing and adoption of the Amendment that are expert in the meaning and usage of words, I have provided you and the board with a very exact meaning of the word INFRINGED.

    It means that the government cannot defeat, break, contravene or destroy your right.

    That is what the second amendment "allows US citizens"..... as you put it.
    or limit it, as is well supported by SCOTUS interpretations.

  5. #1075
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    or limit it, as is well supported by SCOTUS interpretations.
    Except it does not say that. And that sort of incrementalism is a development that is not at all reflected in the finality of the actual definition which applied at the time.
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Except it does not say that. And that sort of incrementalism is a development that is not at all reflected in the finality of the actual definition which applied at the time.

    In other words, unless there is a complete ban, you do not consider incremental steps such as magazine limits, waiting periods, massive taxes on gun purchases or ammo an infringement

    you have claimed that infringement means a complete frustration of being able "to enjoy" one's second amendment rights and I recall you saying if you own one gun then that enjoyment cannot be curtailed

    If you actually believe incremental stepping stones to a ban are not constitutional let us know but I also recall you saying all the current schemes to harass law abiding gun owners did not implicate constitutional matters.

  7. #1077
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    Re: Gun Control

    Your problem is NOT with me. It is with what was written as the Second Amendment.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #1078
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see nobody who posts on this topic that is not taking a position. Perhaps you simply do not understand that position or are confused because it is different than yours? Positions that do not conform to traditional orthodoxy may be unsettling to those who follow the crowd.
    Duh. The people who post are the debaters. As in any debate, there is an audience and the audience, in this type of forum, rarely if ever gives feedback. The audience reads what the debaters post in an attempt to understand the issue and maybe form their own opinion/stance on any given issue. Have you ever heard of a Debate where the goal was influencing the other debaters instead of the audience?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your problem is NOT with me. It is with what was written as the Second Amendment.

    1) to most of us the amendment's dictates are obvious

    2) when you combine that with a complete lack of any proper foundation for finding that the federal government was actually delegated the power to regulate small arms it becomes even more clear

    3) and then the ninth and tenth amendments are the finishing touches

    when the hero of the mutated expanding government-FDR-had to rely on the commerce clause, that pretty much sealed the deal for us

    You see I and many others actually start with an open mind-what was the purpose of the second amendment

    some others however start with this premise-we need to keep others from owning guns so how do we twist and manipulate the USC to allow for our schemes to be "supported"

  10. #1080
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    Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Except it does not say that. And that sort of incrementalism is a development that is not at all reflected in the finality of the actual definition which applied at the time.
    You are stuck on assuming that since the definition of "militia" has changed (in your mind) that the meaning of "right of the people" and "shall not be infringed" have somehow changed as well. That same "logic" would dictate that since the meaning of "the press" has changed that "the people" now have a different right to free speech as well. Playing games with some word meanings and "changing times" in no way changes the fundamental intent of the second amendment, see the recent SCOTUS "Heller" decision, which affirms an individual right of the people, independent of any "militia" definition/service requirement. Cue up Cher singing "If I Could Turn Back Time"....
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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