View Poll Results: Does Free Will Include the Mentally Challenged?

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    13 40.63%
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Thread: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

  1. #51
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I see The religious praying at churches and stuff after horrible events like this latest school shooting. They comfort themselves with the idea that "God has a plan". Well, God gave us free will... so the idea that there is a plan kinda makes sense, to a degree. What about the mentally challenged socio-paths that commit crimes like this. Manson, Bundy, this ****tard who killed the beautiful and innocent little children. Can they have free will? They can't, in my opinion. They are ****ed in the head. They can't make rational decisions AT ALL. They don't understand consequences. Many of them lack morals.

    I just wonder because the idea of free will seems to get tossed out the window when it comes to these ****s... so, logically, that shoots a hole in the entire idea that there is ANY free will.

    What say you?
    The one common thread to most(all except for one, I believe...) of these mass killings is that the murderers kill themselves in the end. This tells me that their "plan" had to include the understanding that what they were about to do would result in severe consequences for themselves if they were caught alive. They had to understand that the consequences would be so severe that death would be preferable. I can't say that this is proof that they understand basic right and wrong but it does show that they understand basic actions and consequences for those actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.

  2. #52
    Professor

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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Yes, you used just one part of science, mostly supported by basic Newtonian physics, and attributed all of science to that. I was just pointing out that error with a branch of science that doesn’t support your position. Therefore science doesn’t support you.

  3. #53
    Light△Bender

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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Yes, you used just one part of science, mostly supported by basic Newtonian physics, and attributed all of science to that. I was just pointing out that error with a branch of science that doesn’t support your position. Therefore science doesn’t support you.
    Oh I see, you knew what I was thinking and drew the conclusion that it's all false. I couldn't have meant a part of science? That's a pompous conclusion with no proof.

    We may actually make unknowable (quantum like) decisions but they're based on a plethora of interacting forces of which we can't possibly be aware.
    Did you miss this part ^ of the quote from my comment or are you purposely, not including that I said "may" and "unknowable" < random?

    All I meant from that part of my comment was that it's possible we don't have the free will we think we do. I don't actually believe that but if it's true we couldn't possibly be aware or prove it, yet.

    Though determinism is more related to philosophy some forms of it can be tested empirically with ideas stemming from physics.
    It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states. Determinism rarely requires that perfect prediction be practically possible – only prediction in theory.
    Last edited by grip; 12-17-12 at 01:50 PM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #54
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    But "excuse" in what sense? "Excuse" as in you don't think there is any way a person could not responsible for murdering someone? "Excuse" as in you don't think that a person who murders another should be immune to punishment? I don't know what you mean by "excuse."
    Excuse as in let them off for insanity or some other "Excuse". In that manner...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #55
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    Staying away from the "all actions are cause effect and therefore determined" line of logic, this was a random act of evil. If it could have been predicted, as in a bus arriving in the morning, then it cold have been prevented. It was the result of an individual making bad choices and causing bad things.

    I have been taken by the number of instances when acts that are just plain evil seem to be occurring with increasing frequency in our globalized village. Watching the first 15 minutes of any news cast in any larger city is just depressing.

    The folks who settled our country were very superstitious and this seems to stand in contrast to the Age of Reason and so on. It could be that in their villages, they were aware of seemingly normal people who suddenly did things that were just evil. Lizzy Borden types of things. Our current comparative anonymity, like this posting forum as an example, insulates us from this kind of craziness.

    It could be that the superstitions they clung to were simply the best explanation of what they were seeing.
    The first 15 minutes of the news has been depressing for the last 30 years at least. This stuff has always been going on, we just hear about it more and more as well as instantly nowadays...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  6. #56
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    The one common thread to most(all except for one, I believe...) of these mass killings is that the murderers kill themselves in the end. This tells me that their "plan" had to include the understanding that what they were about to do would result in severe consequences for themselves if they were caught alive. They had to understand that the consequences would be so severe that death would be preferable. I can't say that this is proof that they understand basic right and wrong but it does show that they understand basic actions and consequences for those actions.
    To the bolded: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. People who have reached the point of homocide/suicide, are not rationalizing at that point. They are so miserable that they are lashing out at others, then destroying what they perceive to be the real problem. They are at the point of extreme rage and anger, as they feel that their life is out of control. I think they are desperate for their discomfort to come to an end.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  7. #57
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The bolded is a point that I have believed for many years. Sane and rational people don't commit murder, even if it is *temporary* insanity, caused by high levels of emotional stress.
    Temporary insanity is just a window into a person that hides their insanity better than others. Hell, my ex has BPD and that is an insanity if ever there was one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #58
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    -A choice to act on urges that was/is influenced by environmental and genetic influences beyond the person's control.
    This is true of everyone. We all have factors outside our control that influence our decisions, but they don't take our decisions away from us.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #59
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    The first 15 minutes of the news has been depressing for the last 30 years at least. This stuff has always been going on, we just hear about it more and more as well as instantly nowadays...
    Imo, that is the majority of the problem that we, as a society, are having with this type of behavior. It's in our face so rapidly, that we personalize it, and make it surreal to the point that we panic.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  10. #60
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    Re: Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    To the bolded: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. People who have reached the point of homocide/suicide, are not rationalizing at that point. They are so miserable that they are lashing out at others, then destroying what they perceive to be the real problem. They are at the point of extreme rage and anger, as they feel that their life is out of control. I think they are desperate for their discomfort to come to an end.
    I think Jack came up with a good line of reasoning... as do you. That is the problem. This is so difficult to understand. This guy objectified the children. I doubt he saw them as people and just as objects. That being said... why kill/destroy them? Why do people kill innocent people and then themselves? Why not just themselves? I can see him shooting his mom. There could be all sorts of real or imagined reasons for that... but little children you have never met? This is the rage you discuss so aptly. Jack's point that they have a plan makes sense to though. Why kill themselves in the end? Because they know they don't want to be caught and/or because they want to be a martyr.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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