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Thread: In light of today's events

  1. #81
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Being on guard, even if someone has clearly identifiable sociopathic neural circuitry, conflicts with being treated equally and fairly with some people here. Having a sociopath with a potential to do harm such as this tragedy in school is alright, and one should not be more on guard, such as observing them a bit more or so, for then they could be stigmatized and treated as secondary citizens, which is not an alright situation. You know someone has to watch out for the rights of sociopaths too.
    Well, the thing is not to isolate them are treat or them without regard to their dignity or well being. What we need to do is get them help, whether that be therapy or just someone to talk to, in the meantime we can at least keep an eye on them to keep them from harming themselves or others.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    You aren't going to prevent another incident. The entire concept of using the power of the state to prevent bad behavior is a pipe dream. It can't work.

    The best we, as a society, can do to reduce the likelihood of this kind of thing happening is to start encouraging personal responsibility and making sure that consequences for bad behavior are both tendered and enforced.

    Look at this mess....millions of people blaming guns for the shooting or blaming lax gun laws or blaming hate speech or whatever. The fact of the matter is that the person that should get the blame is the shooter and anybody that helped him. It's HIS fault that these kids got shot and not the fault of the 2nd amendment or the NRA or anyone else. It was HIM....just him.

    No sane person wants to see a tragedy like this occur. No sane person thinks that it's a good thing that it did happen but to hold millions upon millions of responsible, law abiding people responsible (even indirectly) for this kind of thing is unconscionable.

    Let me ask this question...if we are to cede all responsibility for our safety to the state and the state lets us down then who are we supposed to turn to? Who will protect us when we have taken away all means to protect ourselves and our "benefactor" either can't or won't protect us?
    The state IS NOT responsible for your saftey. The Supreme court and lower courts have stated this and even went so far as to comment on the irony of not being able to arm yourself in those districts that make that exceedingly difficult. The government and Law enforcemnt in particular, have no obligation to you whatsoever. If you ceed your responsibilty it will be for nought. Not only cant they protect you they have no obligation to protect you.
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  3. #83
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Well, the thing is not to isolate them are treat or them without regard to their dignity or well being. What we need to do is get them help, whether that be therapy or just someone to talk to, in the meantime we can at least keep an eye on them to keep them from harming themselves or others.
    That is a very humane idea. But sociopaths are known to manipulate the therapist and crave on humane ideas which they probably perceive as weaknesses. While statistically they are the least to be positively influenced from psychotherapy.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    That is a very humane idea. But sociopaths are known to manipulate the therapist and crave on humane ideas which they probably perceive as weaknesses. While statistically they are the least to be positively influenced from psychotherapy.
    Sociopaths are very good at manipulation, this is true. We need to figure out as people what differentiates the sociopath that kills from the sociopath that is simply anti-social.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Sociopaths are very good at manipulation, this is true. We need to figure out as people what differentiates the sociopath that kills from the sociopath that is simply anti-social.
    That has to do with prediction of intent and decision making. Neuroscience has went as far on this subject as to offer neural patterns of a decision maker. That way with added research we may get to know which decision one has taken before they are to apply it with behavior.

    But then one may argue just because a sociopath has decided to kill, not until they practice murder was it clear enough that the decision was to be behaved upon until the end. Just because a sociopath decided it may not mean that they will carry out the decision until the end.

    Some people and their defense of freedom, they want proof until a crime is actually committed. Makes up for facts and builds up cases and judicial penalties, but then it may be too late for the victim themselves.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    That has to do with prediction of intent and decision making. Neuroscience has went as far on this subject as to offer neural patterns of a decision maker. That way with added research we may get to know which decision one has taken before they are to apply it with behavior.

    But then one may argue just because a sociopath has decided to kill, not until they practice murder was it clear enough that the decision was to be behaved upon until the end. Just because a sociopath decided it may not mean that they will carry out the decision until the end.

    Some people and their defense of freedom, they want proof until a crime is actually committed. Makes up for facts and builds up cases and judicial penalties, but then it may be too late for the victim themselves.
    I'd rather risk a little and be free to be honest. We can always prepare for the worst.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I'd rather risk a little and be free to be honest. We can always prepare for the worst.
    Like you were prepared for this sad crime in Connecticut?

    Or many others for that matter.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Societal conditions can influence the decisions that one makes but, ultimately, the decision regarding how to respond to those influences lies with the individual.

    Let's say that this shooter was locked in his basement for 10 years and tortured by his mother. His choice to shoot her would likely have been influenced by his social conditioning and it would have been understandable. His further decision to go to the school and shoot the kids might also be understandable but it definitely wouldn't be acceptable.
    If you look at the post I was responding too, it suggested everything was down to the perpetrator. Of course, we have no evidence of direct coercion influencing/guiding his actions, but what I'm saying is society has played a part, in the build up of this persons psyche/mental state hitherto. What is up for discussion, is the extent that those 'societal conditions' and what they actually are, and how they can help us understand.
    Are you familiar with social contract theory?

    Paul
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Like you were prepared for this sad crime in Connecticut?

    Or many others for that matter.
    Well, not exactly. Everyone is disgusted about it, but Connecticut is relatively a safe place, then again safety is always relative. What I mean by prepared is if we can't stop the factors of crimes like these we need to be prepared to stop the criminals.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    The state IS NOT responsible for your saftey. The Supreme court and lower courts have stated this and even went so far as to comment on the irony of not being able to arm yourself in those districts that make that exceedingly difficult. The government and Law enforcemnt in particular, have no obligation to you whatsoever. If you ceed your responsibilty it will be for nought. Not only cant they protect you they have no obligation to protect you.
    This can be traced back to social contract theory

    "In political philosophy the social contract or political contract is a theory or model, originating during the Age of Enlightenment, that typically addresses the questions of the origin of society and the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual.[1] Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory"

    Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Locke's political theory was founded on social contract theory. Unlike Thomas Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature is characterised by reason and tolerance. Like Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature allowed men to be selfish. This is apparent with the introduction of currency. In a natural state all people were equal and independent, and everyone had a natural right to defend his “Life, health, Liberty, or Possessions".[21] Most scholars trace the phrase, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," in the American Declaration of Independence to Locke's theory of rights,[22] though other origins have been suggested"

    John Locke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Paul
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