View Poll Results: How to reduce gun related violence

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  • Tighter restrictions

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  • Ban Guns (repeal the second amendment)

    4 4.94%
  • Allow for the wider use of guns for self protection

    34 41.98%
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Thread: In light of today's events

  1. #21
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    But I think I may have an answer to your question. No matter what the protocols are, there are going to be exceptions no matter what rules you devise. The shooter was known to school officials--all day long I've heard "facial recognition." Unless they know otherwise, when somebody's spouse or kid shows up at work, that's different.

    This very night my kid took my building key and went to my office as a favor. Nobody stopped her, and why should they? They've known her since she was a kid. She has my key and my trust. She's driving my old car. How would they know if she suddenly whacked out?
    Today there are neural patterns that can identify whether one is homicidal. Either a raging homicidal person or a psychopath, they have their neural patterns that can be identified. We could use their neural patterns to identify a preset or a critical state that may make one more ready to undertake mass murder.

    It would take fMRI brain scans and a trained neuroimage scientist on school that would make these scans though. Plus at present they cost a lot.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    I don't know.

    Cases like these set my emotional side and my rational side against each other. I have a son the age of those children gunned down in that school. When I see that scene unfolding in my mind's eye I can't help but see my son among the terrified children in fear for their lives. That side of me yells "BAN THEM ALL!"

    My rational side, though, knows the genie is already out of the bottle on that. Even if the 2nd Amendment were repealed, which I am not in favor of, there are so many guns in the US that people with ill intent would still be able to get their hands on them. It isn't like Japan where they never had a large number of guns per person to begin with.

    So most people talk about "reasonable" gun control. When I look at such proposals the word "placebo" pops into my head. It certainly seems like a reasonable precaution to outlaw high capacity magazines. But anyone with a little knowhow, or you know, an internet connection, can figure out how to alter a legal magazine into a higher capacity one.

    Or we could outlaw "assault rifles". I do think that might have an effect. I think it would result in psycho killers being more likely to resort to targeting the more helpless among us, such as this school shooting. A couple handguns, perhaps with altered magazines, may not be able to do as much damage in an open area like a mall as a rifle, but they are just as good against little children in a school.

    These aren't people planning on taking on the cops. They want to kill as many defenseless people as possible before either taking their own lives or being arrested and enjoying their infamy. If they find it difficult to acquire "assault rifles" then they will just bring a few handguns and target the most vulnerable among us, such as small children.

    Being a liberal, most of my friends are liberal and I have seen the comments on Facebook. I am staying out of those discussions because emotions are running high. But one friend lamented that it makes no sense to him that as tragedies like this unfold, people are being allowed to CCW in more and more places. But outlawing CCW would do NOTHING AT ALL to stop these kinds of tragedies. NOTHING. It would of course eliminate people like me from being able to defend against such wackos.

    Look, I'm not a "gun nut". Frankly, even though I am good with them, I HATE guns. I don't get the whole American obsession with them. I respect and use them as a tool for self defense, but if I could snap my fingers and make every gun in the world along with the ability to manufacture them disappear, I would. But until I obtain that kind of magical power, I live in the real world where bad guys have guns.

    And I like the idea of stopping mentally unstable people from buying guns, but how in the hell would that work? The thought of undergoing a "psych eval" is laughable to those of us who have taken them before. The people committing these atrocities appear to be intelligent sociopaths. Such people would be able to pass.

    You are not going to be able to stop intelligent sociopaths from getting their hands on guns, regardless of what laws you pass. Not in the US. They will adapt to whatever restrictions you put before them.

    If we accept that unfortunate reality, then what do we do? For starters, I do think we need to make our schools safer. Our children are required by law to attend them, thus the People have an obligation and a duty to ensure their safety. While simply handing out guns to teachers isn't the answer, there are many things we could do to make our schools safer.

    -Pay teachers who are reserve police officers a bonus. This would result in having some armed teachers in the school, but they would be trained LEOs as well. Perhaps also open this up to teacher who are veterans (upon receiving similar training).
    -Station police cars at schools during school hours. I see them camped out at places like Wal-Mart all the freaking time to deter shoplifters. I would rather see them at schools in case they are needed. Yep, that costs money. Don't care. Raise taxes or cut somewhere else.
    -Make it damn near impossible to get into a school without clearance. Look, I work in embassies. I know from experience it is possible to make a place secure and still not feel like a prison. Yes, it costs money. Stop spending money on stupid sh!t like drug busts and prostitution stings and start protecting our children!

    And in the meantime if they can come up with gun control that would actually matter, rather than simply giving people a warm and fuzzy inside, I would likely support it.

  3. #23
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    And I like the idea of stopping mentally unstable people from buying guns, but how in the hell would that work? The thought of undergoing a "psych eval" is laughable to those of us who have taken them before. The people committing these atrocities appear to be intelligent sociopaths. Such people would be able to pass.
    Psychological evaluation as in with questionnaires or other visual tests such as Rorschach and TAT may be "laughable" to detect with accuracy the brain of a sociopath for there are validity and reliability issues. But the physical appearance neurons within sociopaths or raging murderers differ from one another and (more importantly) from a non homicidal person. This difference can be used for identification, and it should be more valid and reliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    You are not going to be able to stop intelligent sociopaths from getting their hands on guns, regardless of what laws you pass. Not in the US. They will adapt to whatever restrictions you put before them.
    I agree that it would take more people buying from the underground instead of the government. Buying guns may be a dead issue. But letting a homicidal person inside schools may not be.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Psychological evaluation as in with questionnaires or other visual tests such as Rorschach and TAT may be "laughable" to detect with accuracy the brain of a sociopath for there are validity and reliability issues. But the physical appearance neurons within sociopaths or raging murderers differ from one another and (more importantly) from a non homicidal person. This difference can be used for identification, and it should be more valid and reliable.
    If you delve a little deeper into those studies, though, you will see they have no predictive power. Not everyone who commits such crimes show those markers and MOST people who have those markers live out their lives as law abiding citizens.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    If you delve a little deeper into those studies, though, you will see they have no predictive power. Not everyone who commits such crimes show those markers and MOST people who have those markers live out their lives as law abiding citizens.
    Excellent points. We don't want to head down the "thought police" road anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    If you delve a little deeper into those studies, though, you will see they have no predictive power. Not everyone who commits such crimes show those markers and MOST people who have those markers live out their lives as law abiding citizens.
    I have delved deeper into those studies but even they fall short of prediction of course. The one's that you speak of are exceptions to the rule and should be even lower by the numbers. Prediction or not, the information that one has the neural circuit of a psychopath or a raging murderer should be useful. For one you can arrange for more specific observation per those that fall in the psychopath/raging murderer spectrum.

    All these are just my personal point. This is DDD not a Psychologist at work here.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    I have delved deeper into those studies but even they fall short of prediction of course. The one's that you speak of are exceptions to the rule and should be even lower by the numbers. Prediction or not, the information that one has the neural circuit of a psychopath or a raging murderer should be useful. For one you can arrange for more specific observation per those that fall in the psychopath/raging murderer spectrum.

    All these are just my personal point. This is DDD not a Psychologist at work here.
    We cannot in good conscience persecute people for what mite happen. It goes against the very fiber of our society and liberty. People should not have to give up privacy so others can have what amounts to a false sense of security about what mite happen.

    I am not saying we should not be prepared security wise. We can accomplish that without giving up more freedom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #28
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We cannot in good conscience persecute people for what mite happen. It goes against the very fiber of our society and liberty. People should not have to give up privacy so others can have what amounts to a false sense of security about what mite happen.

    I am not saying we should not be prepared security wise. We can accomplish that without giving up more freedom.
    Persecution is another thing, observing identified sociopaths and raging murderers while at schools is another. A very small percent of them are in the world anyway. The advantage is that at least non sociopaths would get to be free from observation. No one wants an unjust uncalled for treatment anyway.

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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Persecution is another thing, observing identified sociopaths and raging murderers while at schools is another. A very small percent of them are in the world anyway. The advantage is that at least non sociopaths would get to be free from observation. No one wants an unjust uncalled for treatment anyway.
    We do not persecute people in this country for what mite happen. We don't spy on a citizen without some kind of proof or evidence. This is why you need a warrent. You are basically saying lets regulate these people to second class citizens and strip them of their god given right to privacy.

    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #30
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    Re: In light of today's events

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We do not persecute people in this country for what mite happen. We don't spy on a citizen without some kind of proof or evidence. This is why you need a warrent. You are basically saying lets regulate these people to second class citizens and strip them of their god given right to privacy.

    No.
    Their neural activity would be the "evidence." Then take the warranty to observe or whatever, go by your own laws. Just filter sociopaths and raging murderers from blending in with the innocent before they snap.

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