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In light of today's events

How to reduce gun related violence

  • Tighter restrictions

    Votes: 19 26.8%

  • Ban Guns (repeal the second amendment)

    Votes: 3 4.2%

  • Allow for the wider use of guns for self protection

    Votes: 27 38.0%

  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 22 31.0%
  • Total voters
    71
Sarcogito said:
If you delve a little deeper into those studies, though, you will see they have no predictive power. Not everyone who commits such crimes show those markers and MOST people who have those markers live out their lives as law abiding citizens.
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I have delved deeper into those studies but even they fall short of prediction of course. The one's that you speak of are exceptions to the rule and should be even lower by the numbers. Prediction or not, the information that one has the neural circuit of a psychopath or a raging murderer should be useful. For one you can arrange for more specific observation per those that fall in the psychopath/raging murderer spectrum.

All these are just my personal point. This is DDD not a Psychologist at work here.
 
DDD said:
I have delved deeper into those studies but even they fall short of prediction of course. The one's that you speak of are exceptions to the rule and should be even lower by the numbers. Prediction or not, the information that one has the neural circuit of a psychopath or a raging murderer should be useful. For one you can arrange for more specific observation per those that fall in the psychopath/raging murderer spectrum.

All these are just my personal point. This is DDD not a Psychologist at work here.
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We cannot in good conscience persecute people for what mite happen. It goes against the very fiber of our society and liberty. People should not have to give up privacy so others can have what amounts to a false sense of security about what mite happen.

I am not saying we should not be prepared security wise. We can accomplish that without giving up more freedom.
 
Blackdog said:
We cannot in good conscience persecute people for what mite happen. It goes against the very fiber of our society and liberty. People should not have to give up privacy so others can have what amounts to a false sense of security about what mite happen.

I am not saying we should not be prepared security wise. We can accomplish that without giving up more freedom.
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Persecution is another thing, observing identified sociopaths and raging murderers while at schools is another. A very small percent of them are in the world anyway. The advantage is that at least non sociopaths would get to be free from observation. No one wants an unjust uncalled for treatment anyway.
 
DDD said:
Persecution is another thing, observing identified sociopaths and raging murderers while at schools is another. A very small percent of them are in the world anyway. The advantage is that at least non sociopaths would get to be free from observation. No one wants an unjust uncalled for treatment anyway.
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We do not persecute people in this country for what mite happen. We don't spy on a citizen without some kind of proof or evidence. This is why you need a warrent. You are basically saying lets regulate these people to second class citizens and strip them of their god given right to privacy.

No.
 
Blackdog said:
We do not persecute people in this country for what mite happen. We don't spy on a citizen without some kind of proof or evidence. This is why you need a warrent. You are basically saying lets regulate these people to second class citizens and strip them of their god given right to privacy.

No.
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Their neural activity would be the "evidence." Then take the warranty to observe or whatever, go by your own laws. Just filter sociopaths and raging murderers from blending in with the innocent before they snap.
 
DDD said:
Their neural activity would be the "evidence." Then take the warranty to observe or whatever, go by your own laws. Just filter sociopaths and raging murderers from blending in with the innocent before they snap.
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It does not work like that at all. Neural activity is not a crime, it is not even likely to be a crime in the future as according to the stats it only applies to a small percentage. You can't get a warrant based on well they mite do something. That is completely illegal. It is thought crime.

This is so outlandish and fascist, I am done.

No offence man, just can't agree. Have a good one.
 
Blackdog said:
This is such partisan crap. Yes it's only self proclaimed conservatives preaching hate. Look around, this is a total hack job. I see just as much hate if not more coming from the left as well.
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What I said wasn't intended to be partisan at all. I grew up in an extremely liberal area. So many people there believed that Republicans are racist and think poor people are expendable. The point was that we live in an environment where all we hear is that our fellow Americans want to ruin the country and this will be the end of the nation if our candidate doesn't win the next election. Then we watch the news and see death and hatred, and then instead of uniting over these horrible things, we are split further apart by the media. Every single day people like Limbaugh take the news and create this self-serving narrative. Trayvon Martin = african americans are allowed to be violent thugs and white americans aren't allowed to protect themselves. We hear it every day. It feeds off itself. It isn't entirely to blame in any horrible tragedy but it is partly to blame in many horrible tragedies.

It's not legal to yell fire in a crowded theater. These people are yelling fire every single day in a crowded theater. Regulate it or unite over stopping it.
 
Goshin said:
I have some burning questions about how this happened...


How did this young man get SO wrong in the head that he was capable of mass-murdering little children, and no one noticed and intervened or got him psychiatric help?

How did this man get into the school armed, when most schools today have security doors and lockdown proceedures?

WHERE was the armed school resource officer (police), and why did he not act to stop this before it got so far?


I don't yet know the answers to these questions, but I think they are the ones we should be asking.
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I agree with Goshin on this. These questions really get to the heart of the matter.

It seems like in so many of these cases, once the incident happens, you can look back and see warning signs. In this case, the shooter's brother said he thought the shooter had a personality disorder. If so, why was it never treated? Maybe there are better ways of identifying people who might do harm to themselves or others. Maybe not, I don't know.

And as sad a comment as it is on the state of affairs in America today, I think schools are going to have to start being better protected. Much better protected. Allowing teachers to carry concealed might help a little, but I'm not sure how much honestly. A gunman is probably going to be more heavily armed, may be wearing body armor, and have the element of surprise. Having someone (or multiple someones) in the school who is armed and trained in dealing with hostile intruders would be better, but would be expensive. You could try to have teachers do it, but I don't think teachers should be forced to become armed guards to keep their jobs.
 
Blackdog said:
It does not work like that at all. Neural activity is not a crime, it is not even likely to be a crime in the future as according to the stats it only applies to a small percentage. You can't get a warrant based on well they mite do something. That is completely illegal. It is thought crime.

This is so outlandish and fascist, I am done.

No offence man, just can't agree. Have a good one.
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None taken, no worries.

It is a problem, and we are just throwing what we have here. At least there is a more valid option of identifying killers such as through neuroimaging available. Now how it is worked from there may require other opinions and other solutions. Block by block bridges are built.
 
Mustachio said:
What I said wasn't intended to be partisan at all. I grew up in an extremely liberal area. So many people there believed that Republicans are racist and think poor people are expendable. The point was that we live in an environment where all we hear is that our fellow Americans want to ruin the country and this will be the end of the nation if our candidate doesn't win the next election. Then we watch the news and see death and hatred, and then instead of uniting over these horrible things, we are split further apart by the media. Every single day people like Limbaugh take the news and create this self-serving narrative. Trayvon Martin = african americans are allowed to be violent thugs and white americans aren't allowed to protect themselves. We hear it every day. It feeds off itself. It isn't entirely to blame in any horrible tragedy but it is partly to blame in many horrible tragedies.

It's not legal to yell fire in a crowded theater. These people are yelling fire every single day in a crowded theater. Regulate it or unite over stopping it.
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The reason why this is irrelevant is neither side is saying, go and kill children. I am not even aware of them saying go and kill the opposition. Talk News/Radio are simply stating an opinion just like we are here. Are causing people to kill each other simply by expressing opposing view points on this page?
 
nota bene said:
Me too.

But I think I may have an answer to your question. No matter what the protocols are, there are going to be exceptions no matter what rules you devise. The shooter was known to school officials--all day long I've heard "facial recognition." Unless they know otherwise, when somebody's spouse or kid shows up at work, that's different.

This very night my kid took my building key and went to my office as a favor. Nobody stopped her, and why should they? They've known her since she was a kid. She has my key and my trust. She's driving my old car. How would they know if she suddenly whacked out?

I think the shooter got past the protocols because he was known to security. There will always be exceptions to every rule. Should we change the rules because of the exceptions? Should every spouse bringing lunch to his/her sweetie as a common practice be frisked? Should we somehow have the gift of prophecy and otherwise live our lives in fear of even the known?
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You have some good points... however: It was apparently widely known that this young man had mental and behavioral issues. Given that, it seems to me that someone should have been a bit more on-guard in his case.
 
MaggieD said:
Lock-downs that means something. You know, like when all the kids are in the building, the doors are locked down and no one gets in without a personal escort and knowing what their business is. With an emergency alarm on the inside at every door.
Steel doors for classrooms that are locked down when class begins...every classroom equipped with an alarm system wired to the local police department.
Metal detectors.
Trained and armed security.
Video cameras with full-time monitoring.

Some will say, "WTF are you talking about???" Think of what we do for fire detection/prevention in every school and classroom in the United States. How many deaths by fire do we have in American schools every year? How many deaths by morons?
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Horrific ideas, changing an institution of education into a prison.
And yet, very sadly, this may be what we need.
Over the past century, some has gone seriously wrong.
We had none of this crap when I was attending school...misbehave and a teacher would handle it directly, don't I know...lol...
In the past half century, we have taken some wrong turns.
 
Goshin said:
I have some burning questions about how this happened...


How did this young man get SO wrong in the head that he was capable of mass-murdering little children, and no one noticed and intervened or got him psychiatric help?We have become a nation of strangers...walk down the street...does anyone smile and greet ?
Do we all hate each other ?Even within a family, is there any love, any care ? We are all so damn busy being greedy...we must turn off the TV, the video games, take walk and discuss things - just care about one another.....

How did this man get into the school armed, when most schools today have security doors and lockdown proceedures?IMO, these things are designed by idiots, who think they know everything....they do NOT

WHERE was the armed school resource officer (police), and why did he not act to stop this before it got so far? This was a horrible event, the mass murderer must have bee calm, cool, and collected as he systematically murdered those who would protect the children...He probably planned this for some time. That he was a coward(typical) helps not, dead men tell few tales.


I don't yet know the answers to these questions, but I think they are the ones we should be asking.


This is a horrible and tragic crime that really hit me where I live as a parent.
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I wish I had the answers...
Ignore all the advertisments which generate hatred and greed...the base of this problem.
Love is the answer, not hatred and fear.
 
You cannot love the crazy out of people's heads.
 
Lachean said:
Only three things can be done to prevent tragedies like these:

1. We need adequate means of identifying and treating people with mental illness.
2. We need more good people with guns. Too many of these shootings occur in Gun Free (Target Rich) zones, that the criminal thrives on. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, either concealed carrying or law enforcement. We need armed teachers, students on college campuses, and armed guards to protect our children.
3. More security. Guarded limited access during school hours, with surveillance, alerts and training/preparations.

Restricting the law abiding will accomplish nothing but shifting the balance of power further in favor of the criminal, leaving fewer good people with guns compared to those who don't obey such disarming laws or any other.
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1. We need a ton of work here, IMO, its nearly impossible with the "mental" health people we have today
2. We do NOT need more guns !
The mass murderer was not a so-called criminal, in many, if not most cases they are not..
We do not need any return to the wild west (and east) days, when everyone wore a gun.
3. High quality security, not "more".
A school is still an institute of learning, NOT a prison...
 
earthworm said:
Gun ownership should now be a privilege, NOT a "right".
Our people must stand up to the NRA and its minions..
The restrictions should be that only certified sane people own them.
And this "certified sane" must be completely redefined....including certified responsibility.
There are unanswered questions ...why so many guns....one is more than enough, the now murdered owner had three of them. And, to me, its obvious that this "mass murderer" was off his rocker, yet he still had access.
Why?
But, again, the gun-loving tea bagging conservatives will stop all attempt at reform legislation...these murders will have to occur every year for another 50 years...then ,maybe, something will be done..
Probably a repeal of the second amendment...
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It is a right, not a privilege...that is why it is in the Bill of Rights, along with free speech.

Americans will never give up their right to be armed; it is one of the most fundamental rights of a free people as our Founders well knew.
 
Paratrooper said:
This is so true! I think it was just yesterday that I was watching Rush Limbaugh and I remember him saying all of us Republicans should get our guns and go massacre a school children! /sarcasm off
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There is a huge abyss between the Rush Limbaugh's of this this world and Jesus of the first AD years.....or a Gandhi of his time.
Over time, things are so twisted and turned....
 
Bring back the 1994 ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004.
 
Carleen said:
Bring back the 1994 ban on assault weapons that expired in 2004.
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An assault weapon was not used in this attack. It was left in the car.

He used two pistols.
 
Goshin said:
An assault weapon was not used in this attack. It was left in the car.

He used two pistols.
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It was interesting this morning when I turned on CNN. They literally spent 10 minutes talking about the assault rifle that was found in the trunk of the car. It wasn't even used. Might as well talk about the nearest M1 Abrams tank at the National Guard armory too, since it was utilized just as much.
 
Goshin said:
It is a right, not a privilege...that is why it is in the Bill of Rights, along with free speech.

Americans will never give up their right to be armed; it is one of the most fundamental rights of a free people as our Founders well knew.
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Explain the need to be armed....its 2012, not 1612 or 1812.
And I know what it is !
That does NOT make it right..
IMO, gun ownership SHOULD BE a privilege, NOT a right. And, it is slowly becoming more of a privledge and less of a right, which addles the hell out of gun loving conservatives.
 
WI Crippler said:
It was interesting this morning when I turned on CNN. They literally spent 10 minutes talking about the assault rifle that was found in the trunk of the car. It wasn't even used. Might as well talk about the nearest M1 Abrams tank at the National Guard armory too, since it was utilized just as much.
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The murderer was no fool; He knew there was a 0.0% chance of bringing in a rifle thru school security.
So, what was CNN's point ?
 
Mustachio said:
What I said wasn't intended to be partisan at all. I grew up in an extremely liberal area. So many people there believed that Republicans are racist and think poor people are expendable. The point was that we live in an environment where all we hear is that our fellow Americans want to ruin the country and this will be the end of the nation if our candidate doesn't win the next election. Then we watch the news and see death and hatred, and then instead of uniting over these horrible things, we are split further apart by the media. Every single day people like Limbaugh take the news and create this self-serving narrative. Trayvon Martin = african americans are allowed to be violent thugs and white americans aren't allowed to protect themselves. We hear it every day. It feeds off itself. It isn't entirely to blame in any horrible tragedy but it is partly to blame in many horrible tragedies.

It's not legal to yell fire in a crowded theater. These people are yelling fire every single day in a crowded theater. Regulate it or unite over stopping it.
Click to expand...

With this, its hard not to agree more.
And our sensationalist based media helps not.
 
earthworm said:
Explain the need to be armed....its 2012, not 1612 or 1812.
And I know what it is !
That does NOT make it right..
IMO, gun ownership SHOULD BE a privilege, NOT a right. And, it is slowly becoming more of a privledge and less of a right, which addles the hell out of gun loving conservatives.
Click to expand...

The right to bare arms shouldn't be limited to the generation.

People don't seem understand that killers and psychopaths will get a hold of guns regardless of the law. This man got guns registered to his mother who was a law abiding citizen. To restrict or take away guns from responsible citizens is outrageous.

We need to reevaluate our mental health sector not change an amendment.

Gun restrictions won't stop the killing or even make a dent in it because criminals and mentally ill people will find a way to obtain the weapons. It is not a valid solution at all.
 
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