View Poll Results: How long will it take?

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  • 16 or More Years

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  • Democrats don't know how to fix the economy

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Thread: Enlightenend Society

  1. #111
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    $2 trillion dollars of tax payers money wasted in a needless GOP war against Iraq on behalf of big oil did not help our economy, it was just the most wasteful part of our deficit spending.
    That still doesn't explain how it is related to the economy. It explains, partly, a relationship between it and the governments budget, but not the economy.

    And cheaper oil is a positive for the economy, not a negative.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    That still doesn't explain how it is related to the economy. It explains, partly, a relationship between it and the governments budget, but not the economy.

    And cheaper oil is a positive for the economy, not a negative.
    You don't believe that deficit spending and huge national debt hurts the economy? Most Americans do not agree with the blood for oil policy in Iraq, that's one of the reasons we voted for Obama, as he was the only viable candidate that said it should be ended.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You don't believe that deficit spending and huge national debt hurts the economy? Most Americans do not agree with the blood for oil policy in Iraq, that's one of the reasons we voted for Obama, as he was the only viable candidate that said it should be ended.
    They only hurt the economy when tax rates are changed. Higher tax rates will always negatively impact the economy, however, there is no definitive proof that lowering tax rates improves the economy. Also, every single year of Bush, the deficit Decreased after it spiked.

    U.S. Federal Deficits, Presidents, and Congress

    I notice you still bring up Iraq, but didn't answer my question about Afghanistan. Are you now conceding that it was a necessary war for our defense?

    It clearly shows that deficit was in reduction prior to the 2006 election where the Dems took control of Congress. It spiked, but was then coming back under control. It had to spike after the utterly miserable shape that Clinton left the military in.

    It also very clearly shows how the debt and deficit spiked after the Dems took office and been high ever since with only some relief coming after the Rep took the House.

    P.S. Due to my personal involvement and circumstances surrounding the beginning and reasons for the Iraq war, I refrain from discussing that topic other than to say that I have absolute unshakable faith that it was the right thing to do. Besides actually believing that, I have to, my own mental health depends on me believing that. I wish I could tell you the reasons for that faith, but I cannot.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  4. #114
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    They only hurt the economy when tax rates are changed. Higher tax rates will always negatively impact the economy, however, there is no definitive proof that lowering tax rates improves the economy. Also, every single year of Bush, the deficit Decreased after it spiked.

    U.S. Federal Deficits, Presidents, and Congress
    So debt is no problem? Glad to hear it!!! Stop whining about having to repay US debt then.



    I notice you still bring up Iraq, but didn't answer my question about Afghanistan. Are you now conceding that it was a necessary war for our defense?
    No, I am conceding that, unlike with the Iraq war, a majority of both parties voted for going after Al Qeada in Afghanistan.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #115
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So debt is no problem? Glad to hear it!!! Stop whining about having to repay US debt then.




    No, I am conceding that, unlike with the Iraq war, a majority of both parties voted for going after Al Qeada in Afghanistan.
    Not exactly what I said. Saying it doesn't always have a significant impact upon the economy is not the same as saying it not harmful in other ways.

    Define Whining as you see it? Stating that it is too high is not whining. Stating that it will have a negative impact on the Economy when taxes have to be raised is not whining. Saying that debt cannot continue to rise indefinitely is not whining. I cannot think of a single thing I have ever said about the debt or deficits that could be considered whining.

    Perhaps my insistence that you and others qualify the wars (to which you and another responded about the debt/deficit caused,) as to how they relate to the economy, the subject of this thread, as in the downturn and the recovery of the economy. You might consider that whining, but actually, it is an attempt to get you to focus on the actual subject of this thread and relate what you said to that subject.

    I have given you my view on how they relate, however, you still have not supported your view that they somehow affected the economy negatively or that they are preventing economic recovery. You brought up the wars, in this thread, thus saying that they related to the downturn or the recovery of the economy. It is your argument, it is you that must support it if questions or concede that they did not.

    Recovery, I can figure out myself, if Taxes get raised, but these are factors that existed long before the "crash". I am not debating their potential negative impact upon economic recovery.

    So, please, lay out your associations and logic chain on how the wars negatively impacted the economy and how the wars in any way helped cause the economic downturn. Or do you concede that they did not?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Not exactly what I said. Saying it doesn't always have a significant impact upon the economy is not the same as saying it not harmful in other ways.

    Define Whining as you see it? Stating that it is too high is not whining. Stating that it will have a negative impact on the Economy when taxes have to be raised is not whining. Saying that debt cannot continue to rise indefinitely is not whining. I cannot think of a single thing I have ever said about the debt or deficits that could be considered whining.

    Perhaps my insistence that you and others qualify the wars (to which you and another responded about the debt/deficit caused,) as to how they relate to the economy, the subject of this thread, as in the downturn and the recovery of the economy. You might consider that whining, but actually, it is an attempt to get you to focus on the actual subject of this thread and relate what you said to that subject.

    I have given you my view on how they relate, however, you still have not supported your view that they somehow affected the economy negatively or that they are preventing economic recovery. You brought up the wars, in this thread, thus saying that they related to the downturn or the recovery of the economy. It is your argument, it is you that must support it if questions or concede that they did not.

    Recovery, I can figure out myself, if Taxes get raised, but these are factors that existed long before the "crash". I am not debating their potential negative impact upon economic recovery.

    So, please, lay out your associations and logic chain on how the wars negatively impacted the economy and how the wars in any way helped cause the economic downturn. Or do you concede that they did not?


    Either we have a debt problem we need to address, or we don't, which is it?

    If we have a debt problem, then we need to cut our most wasteful spending, which is excessive military spending and wars of choice. The Democrats have been a bigger advocate of cutting this most wasteful spending than have been the GOP.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #117
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Either we have a debt problem we need to address, or we don't, which is it?

    If we have a debt problem, then we need to cut our most wasteful spending, which is excessive military spending and wars of choice. The Democrats have been a bigger advocate of cutting this most wasteful spending than have been the GOP.
    If you want to discuss debt, then move to or create a thread about debt. This is about the economy.

    How does your post about two wars relate to the economy? Specifically, what roles did they play in causing an economic downturn?

    The only relation I know of is Taxes, and Taxes have not changed since before the Wars. I am trying to understand how you are relating the wars to the economy.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    If you want to discuss debt, then move to or create a thread about debt. This is about the economy.

    How does your post about two wars relate to the economy? Specifically, what roles did they play in causing an economic downturn?

    The only relation I know of is Taxes, and Taxes have not changed since before the Wars. I am trying to understand how you are relating the wars to the economy.

    Setting aside for a moment that you think debt and deficit spending are unrelated to the economy, what we need is further stimulus to spur infrastructure jobs and growth while assuring no tax increase/benefits decrease for the working class.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #119
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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Setting aside for a moment that you think debt and deficit spending are unrelated to the economy, what we need is further stimulus to spur infrastructure jobs and growth while assuring no tax increase/benefits decrease for the working class.
    I do not think they are unrelated, infact, the very post you quoted I stated how I think they are related. But I cannot answer or debate how you think they are related without you telling me how you think they are related.

    I think income taxes should be equal for everyone. While they make more money, your post tends to lead one to think the other classes don't work. This may be true in some cases, but not in others.

    We have already pored more than a Trillion dollars into stimulus, it didn't really work. I have my opinion why it didn't work, but it didn't. So why should we give the same people any more money to stimulate the economy when they have already demonstrated that their approach to doing it doesn't work?

    Also, jobs bills have come up in Congress and been defeated. Why were they defeated? Not because those voting against it didn't like the idea of the jobs bill, they just mandated that those wanting those bills come up with a way, other than deficit and debt, to pay for it. If you want $200 billion for a jobs bill, what are you going to cut to pay for it? If you cut that $200 Billion from just Defense, how many jobs will be lost vs how many will be gained by the bill? You may not like the military, you may hate defense spending, but the DoD is a very large employer. Could we cut waste exceeding $200 billion from defense, I believe so, however, I don't see Congress taking the steps that would be necessary because it would mean them giving up some control. Arbitrarily cutting defense is bad. With defense, you have to plan and reorganize how it does business. Congress and the President, pretty much, control how DoD does business.

    But, I am also against the government spending that kind of money. It falsely props up the economy. Instead, I think we need to redo government regulation to allow the economy to do better instead of spending billions, even trillions in a socialistic attempt to manipulate the economy and make it even more dependent on the government.

    I would be far more willing to allow temporary stimulus if the government were making actual real positive changes to it's governance of the economy. I have not heard, nor read about, a single politician, of either party, at the national level ever address all the real governmental issues that caused the economic failure. Without significant changes to the governance of the economy, any "stimulus" money pored in is just wasted. Fix then stimulate not stimulate and ignore.

    So, if I am understanding you correctly, the wars, started 7 and 5 years before the economic down turn did not cause the downturn but prevent recovery because you feel the government should have a greater role in the economy. So, exactly how, 7 and 5 years before the wars, was Bush and Congress supposed to know that the economy would crash?

    Where, in any governing document, aka the Constitution, does it say that the government is responsible for controlling the economy? Or to stimulate it (especially after they broke it)?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Enlightenend Society

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post

    I think income taxes should be equal for everyone.
    Fortunately our forefathers were wise enough to see that a flat tax for everyone led to a two class system of robber barons and serfs when they instituted a progressive tax system, and as we saw in the Presidential election and all the polls, the majority of voters still support a progressive tax system.


    We have already pored more than a Trillion dollars into stimulus, it didn't really work. I have my opinion why it didn't work, but it didn't. So why should we give the same people any more money to stimulate the economy when they have already demonstrated that their approach to doing it doesn't work?
    Are you seriously asking why Congress didn't take your opinion rather than the CBO? The CBO testified before Congress that they and the nation's top economists have determined that unemployment would have been worse without the stimulus.


    Also, jobs bills have come up in Congress and been defeated. Why were they defeated?
    Because the GOP was more interested in scoring political points with their base than they were concerned for Americans without jobs.


    So, if I am understanding you correctly, the wars, started 7 and 5 years before the economic down turn did not cause the downturn but prevent recovery because you feel the government should have a greater role in the economy. So, exactly how, 7 and 5 years before the wars, was Bush and Congress supposed to know that the economy would crash?
    Because a consumer economy cannot prosper when most of the money is concentrated at the top, out of reach of the majority of consumers. We learned this first in the 1920's and repeated the mistake in the 2000's.

    Where, in any governing document, aka the Constitution, does it say that the government is responsible for controlling the economy? Or to stimulate it (especially after they broke it)?
    I've seen no one suggest that the government control the economy. All that I have seen done is to stimulate the economy when the private market is not doing it. The goal of the whole Constitution is to promote the welfare of we the people. A strong economy promotes the welfare of we the people.
    Last edited by Catawba; 12-18-12 at 04:12 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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