If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members of?

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Redress said:

I can think of any number who would be Obama type democrats. Most notably probably would be Jefferson.

Click to expand...

I vehemently disagree. Please explain how you would associate Jefferson's philosophy on government to Obama's? Jefferson was strongly opposed to centralizing government power and openly said so many, many times.

Thomas Jefferson's concerns about a centralized federal government can be seen in the Declaration of Independence in this quote directly from the Declaration itself which Thomas Jefferson penned.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Click to expand...

His abject fear that our Constitutional Republic would lead to a centralized form of government was clarified even further in one of his later pieces written in 1821 where he says ...

" ... the Federal Judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is scarcely a scarecrow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one.

When all government... in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

- Thomas Jefferson (1821)

Click to expand...

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Hey! I like Ike also.

I'm not only not a constitutional scholar, I don't think I've ever read it. Just like others who are equally ignorant, I think I know enough about it to sense that it has been modified beyond recognition and the "blueprint" seems to be more about the whatever it looked like about 50 years ago. We've done great on freedom of speech but a lot of other areas are pretty modified any more.

I'm probably wrong:3oops:

ReformCollege said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Think of government as a building.The constitution is the blueprint, a golden standard, which maximizes individual freedom and is supposed to provide checks and balances against a powerful government (although this is being eroded as we speak). Our government has evolved many times over 200 years, not because the blueprint changed, but because the materials the government has had to work with has changed. I see no reason why we should ever have to get rid of the blue print, when it has served us so well for over 200 years. The present day materials are what need to be changed.

Click to expand...

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

FluffyNinja said:

I vehemently disagree. Please explain how you would associate Jefferson's philosophy on government to Obama's? Jefferson was strongly opposed to centralizing government power and openly said so many, many times.

Thomas Jefferson's concerns about a centralized federal government can be seen in the Declaration of Independence in this quote directly from the Declaration itself which Thomas Jefferson penned.



His abject fear that our Constitutional Republic would lead to a centralized form of government was clarified even further in one of his later pieces written in 1821 where he says ...

Click to expand...

Hell, Alexander Hamilton himself would stand dumbfounded and dismayed at how far things have gotten out of control in terms of centralized federal power and complete lack of Constitutional restraint.

TJ would be writing a new declaration and wondering why we hadn't burned D.C. to the ground already.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Smeagol said:

If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would they be members of?

Click to expand...

Well, some would be Republicans, most likely those that banded under the old Federalist Party, and associated themselves with the Federalist movement.

Those that banded to the Democrats would likely have been the Anti-Federalists, who later founded the Democratic-Republican Party.

And you can pretty much follow those 2 groups through to today. The Federalists became the National Republican Party (1825), then the Whig Party (1833), then finally by the Republican Party in 1854.

The Anti-Federalists formed the Democratic Republican Party, which morphed into the Democratic party in 1824 when it tore itself apart over the candidacy of Andrew Jackson.

So if you want to know what party they would have belonged to, just look to what parties they belonged to when they were alive.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Oozlefinch said:

Well, some would be Republicans, most likely those that banded under the old Federalist Party, and associated themselves with the Federalist movement.

Those that banded to the Democrats would likely have been the Anti-Federalists, who later founded the Democratic-Republican Party.

And you can pretty much follow those 2 groups through to today. The Federalists became the National Republican Party (1825), then the Whig Party (1833), then finally by the Republican Party in 1854.

The Anti-Federalists formed the Democratic Republican Party, which morphed into the Democratic party in 1824 when it tore itself apart over the candidacy of Andrew Jackson.

So if you want to know what party they would have belonged to, just look to what parties they belonged to when they were alive.

Click to expand...

If I am reading this right, this seems to be a bit of..a problem. You aren't focusing on their ideas so much as the Party to which they belonged.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

I see one of two options. Most of them were pretty progressive for their time. Either they would continue to be progressive, adapt to the progressive struggles of our time, and maintain that position along the political spectrum... making them pretty staunchly left, or they would split along the same urban vs rural lines that they were arguing about two hundred years ago and we're still facing now. I think they would be smart enough to adapt to the completely different paradigm of civil rights we have now, and wouldn't get caught up in being astounded that women and non-whites can vote.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Paschendale said:

I see one of two options. Most of them were pretty progressive for their time. Either they would continue to be progressive, adapt to the progressive struggles of our time, and maintain that position along the political spectrum... making them pretty staunchly left, or they would split along the same urban vs rural lines that they were arguing about two hundred years ago and we're still facing now. I think they would be smart enough to adapt to the completely different paradigm of civil rights we have now, and wouldn't get caught up in being astounded that women and non-whites can vote.

Click to expand...

So, based on what we know of their "progressivism" what do you think their "take" would be on how centralized government power has become in modern times?

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Paschendale said:

I see one of two options. Most of them were pretty progressive for their time. Either they would continue to be progressive, adapt to the progressive struggles of our time, and maintain that position along the political spectrum... making them pretty staunchly left, or they would split along the same urban vs rural lines that they were arguing about two hundred years ago and we're still facing now. I think they would be smart enough to adapt to the completely different paradigm of civil rights we have now, and wouldn't get caught up in being astounded that women and non-whites can vote.

Click to expand...

Why do you think "most" were "progressive"?

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

FluffyNinja said:

So, based on what we know of their "progressivism" what do you think their "take" would be on how centralized government power has become in modern times?

Click to expand...

Depends. Some of them would wonder why there is not a National University, and why so many trust in the common people.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

They'd be members of whatever party I belong to, because that gives credence to my party choice.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Fiddytree said:

Depends. Some of them would wonder why there is not a National University, and why so many trust in the common people.

Click to expand...

I wonder. I would think that the majority would question why/how we'd drifted so far back towards centraliztion of power. I'm thinking that Jefferson probably wouldn't be awfully excited over the trend. :shrug:

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Fiddytree said:

If I am reading this right, this seems to be a bit of..a problem. You aren't focusing on their ideas so much as the Party to which they belonged.

Click to expand...

The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Oozlefinch said:

The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.

Click to expand...

Since some seem to believe that the Founders were more akin to our modern "Progressives"........I'd like to pose this question: How would the majority of our Founders view modern taxation.....including income, property, Social Security and unemployment taxes?

If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretences for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey, and permits none to escape without a tribute.
– Thomas Paine (The Rights of Man, 1791)(Dedicated to George Washington)

Click to expand...

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

FluffyNinja said:

Since some seem to believe that the Founders were more akin to our modern "Progressives"........I'd like to pose this question: How would the majority of our Founders view modern taxation.....including income, property, Social Security and unemployment taxes?

Click to expand...

Well, if you are going by specific topics like that (as opposed to more general philosophies), then in that time and era, all of them would have been strongly opposed. Remember, a lot of the anger of the Revolution dealt with taxes, and the belief that the Government was taking to much power into itself at the expense of the people. Of course, this was also an era very different from our own. By far, most people lived an agrarian lifestyle, and lived off of the land.

Today, the world is much different. And if anybody is honest, they would admit that the beliefs of the 18th and 19th centuries would not work in the modern world. Isolationism was well and good, when travel between Continents took weeks or months. It is not very realistic when it is now a matter of hours. And likely Jefferson would have changed his belief in "excessive taxation" when faced with the fact that millions would starve without things like welfare because they simply can't grow or hunt their own food like they could 100 years ago.

Trying to put either antiquated beliefs into modern beliefs, or modern beliefs onto historical figures is very disingenuous. But the core beliefs of these individuals would likely have followed along the path of the parties that followed the ones they belonged in. It is much how I laugh when I hear modern Liberals talk about how Jack Kennedy would embrace their beliefs. All the while ignoring the fact that Jack Kennedy was a Conservative Democrat who dispised "Liberals" (do not confuse JFK the Presidental Candidate with JFK the man, he supported Senator McCarthy, was best friends with Richard Nixon, and stated publicly that he would have supported Nixon if he had not gotten the Demicratic nomination in 1960).

Remember, JFK was one of the strongest supporters of Senator McCarthy, and never denounced him. He frequently spoke out against Ike, stating that he was not hard enough against Communists. He escalated the conflict in Vietnam, made a firm stance against the Soviets in the Cuban Missile Crisis, supported Civil Rights (when it was considered to be a "Conservative Issue", rejected by most Democrats), invaded Cuba in the "Bay of Pigs" incident, followed a "trickle down" tax policy, giving tax breaks to businesses to stimulate the economy, and was considered to be very "Pro Business". Yet today, it is the Liberals who claim he would have supported them. This is an example of trying to take a person and their beliefs, and molding it dishonestly to fit modern ideals.

Other then maybe individuals like Thomas Jefferson, who would now be a wild and crazy Right Wing Libertarian, who more then likely would support the Occupy movement because it would give the Tree of Liberty the blood it so desperately needs. And to take even more modern individuals, JFK would likely have been a Republican, and Richard Nixon would have been a Democrat. Because in the modern parties, there is no room in the Democrats for a Conservative, and no room in the Republicans for a Liberal.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Smeagol said:

If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would they be members of?

As is would be easily expected, societies change over time. In America we no longer have slavery. We honor the heritage of the Native Americans. We pay taxes in more ways than we can count on our fingers; federal income, SS, inheritance, state income, state sales, capital gains, special taxes on alcohol and tobacco, etc. We have public state operated schools where Christianity is banned except under certain conditions and I could go on.

In reading up on the Founding Fathers I often ask myself which political party would they most likely join and why. What do you think?

Click to expand...

which ones? They weren't in the same party to begin with.

Washington - independent, he was specifically against parties.
Adams - republican
Jefferson - democrat
Madison - democrat

Random guesses to be honest except for Washington.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

They'd probably have trouble identifying with any of the major political parties. There's just too much difference between the America they lived in and the America of today.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

specklebang said:

Hey! I like Ike also.

I'm not only not a constitutional scholar, I don't think I've ever read it. Just like others who are equally ignorant, I think I know enough about it to sense that it has been modified beyond recognition and the "blueprint" seems to be more about the whatever it looked like about 50 years ago. We've done great on freedom of speech but a lot of other areas are pretty modified any more.

I'm probably wrong:3oops:

Click to expand...

Well if you don't know whats in the blueprint, how do you know if its right or wrong?

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

molten_dragon said:

They'd probably have trouble identifying with any of the major political parties. There's just too much difference between the America they lived in and the America of today.

Click to expand...

I think we easily established that they would be libertarians.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

I didn't say anything about right or wrong.

I only said that it was dated and heavily modified over time.

Have you studied the Constitution or are you just familiar with its contents over time?

ReformCollege said:

Well if you don't know whats in the blueprint, how do you know if its right or wrong?

Click to expand...

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

FluffyNinja said:

I wonder. I would think that the majority would question why/how we'd drifted so far back towards centraliztion of power. I'm thinking that Jefferson probably wouldn't be awfully excited over the trend. :shrug:

Click to expand...

It depends. You have to consider that there was a large gulf between what Jefferson and his Democratic-Republicans wanted and what Hamilton, Washington, and Adams wanted in the Federalist Party. In some respects, sure they could very well be surprised at domestic spending efforts concentrated at the federal level. On the other hand, maybe the surprise will be in not what we give to the Federal government. We are far more democratic, far less deferential to federal authority than many would necessarily like in many other respects.

In essence, Libertarians will find things they like out of Hamilton, but find many more things they absolutely cannot adhere to. They may like some things from Adams, but be turned off on many other matters. Washington's Farewell address receives a glossing over, with everyone only focusing on one small portion of his foreign policy...but little else. I don't anticipate Republicans, Democrats, or Libertarians rushing to the defense of an obviously elitist viewpoint of the Federalists. I know small-government conservatives won't exactly be thrilled at the concept that Alexander Hamilton was about as antithetical as one could get to limited government power. Or that stoic, Cincinnatus fan George Washington, would propose National projects which haven't been promoted since John Quincy Adams, because of the small-government mentality that had been an adversary then and now.

It's understandable that people want the Founding generation to agree with them in the present. Everyone does. Nevertheless, there's a really quick problem that surfaces: most are difficult to place in the current era and maybe you wouldn't want to, because their political philosophies have been tremendously different from what Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians conceive.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

ReformCollege said:

I think we easily established that they would be libertarians.

Click to expand...

Considering the reaction libertarians had against George W. Bush's War on Terrorism and his reach of power, along with a whole host of other problems, I would rethink that assessment.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Oozlefinch said:

The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.

Click to expand...

You're using Party as the determining factor, but American political parties, while ideological, evolve through time and do not necessarily represent one conception of politics from one generation to the next. In essence, they are nearly empty houses with which you fill up the demographics. Try to consider the Democratic-Republican Party after the War of 1812. If we were to hold up the notion that Parties are this ahistorical, why on earth would they have adopted so many of the Federalist platforms (which eventually lead to the national death of the Federalist Party), and then go back again, and then do it once more?

Ideas matter more for this kind of counter-factual analysis.

When using Jefferson, you ignore his incredibly small-government, no deficit spending, amendment to the Constitution for new powers, minimalist military viewpoints. When you consider those viewpoints, where does Jefferson fall?

And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but then consider other matters. When it comes to who should have political power, what did John Adams think? Could you honestly see a Republican, who currently has to flatter the populists, being able to do so with those expressed viewpoints? Would he appreciate members of his own Party regularly attacking the Supreme Court, because of "activist judges"? To what extent would his big government tendencies feel at home with the Republican Party, to what extent would they not? Does John Adams' monarchistic viewpoint of political parties have something to add to this analysis? If the man was convinced he needed the best minds from anywhere, regardless of Party, and he himself felt almost no loyalty to the Party to which he belonged (unlike Jefferson), does this put a dent in your approach?

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

shiang said:

which ones? They weren't in the same party to begin with.

Washington - independent, he was specifically against parties.
Adams - republican
Jefferson - democrat
Madison - democrat

Random guesses to be honest except for Washington.

Click to expand...

I would pretty much agree with all of those, but James Madison. But then again, James Madison was a hard person to predict. He was one of the leaders of the Federalist movement, yet he also was a supporter of Jefferson and his Democratic-Republican Party. So he would probably be like a Joe Lieberman today. Mostly follow one party, but also have no problems with walking away from them and going on his own.

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Fiddytree said:

You're using Party as the determining factor, but American political parties, while ideological, evolve through time and do not necessarily represent one conception of politics from one generation to the next.

Click to expand...

No, you are trying to make 200 year old dead politicians fit into conventional parties. And that simply does not work. That is why I am pretty much laughing at all of this conceit.

I think the founders would have rejected all conventional parties. They would be horrified at the hugely bloated government that we have today. Where huge amounts of taxes are collected, then redistributed down to others. They would probably support a program along the lines of taking all of the urban poor and unemployed, giving them a chunk of BLM land and make them farmers so they could support themselves instead of being a drain on the taxpayers. Make them independent and able to take care of themselves.

Here is an example of somebody who was a lot closer to the "Founding Fathers" then we are. And he is now famous for standing what he saw as the "excesses of Government spending".

Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

Oozlefinch said:

No, you are trying to make 200 year old dead politicians fit into conventional parties. And that simply does not work. That is why I am pretty much laughing at all of this conceit.

Click to expand...

The entire exercise is that. You're doing it just as readily as the others.

I think the founders would have rejected all conventional parties.

Click to expand...

Why? They contributed to its development and essentially created them.

They would be horrified at the hugely bloated government that we have today.

Click to expand...

And why is that? The belief that the Founding Fathers represented "small government"?

Where huge amounts of taxes are collected, then redistributed down to others. They would probably support a program along the lines of taking all of the urban poor and unemployed, giving them a chunk of BLM land and make them farmers so they could support themselves instead of being a drain on the taxpayers. Make them independent and able to take care of themselves.

Click to expand...

Do you have actual policy evidence of this?

Here is an example of somebody who was a lot closer to the "Founding Fathers" then we are. And he is now famous for standing what he saw as the "excesses of Government spending".

Click to expand...

A youtube video about Davy Crockett. Come on, man.