View Poll Results: What political party do you think most of the Founding Fathers would join?

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  • Democrat

    14 11.38%
  • Republican

    25 20.33%
  • Libertarian

    62 50.41%
  • Green

    0 0%
  • Other

    22 17.89%
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Thread: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members of?

  1. #71
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I think we easily established that they would be libertarians.
    Considering the reaction libertarians had against George W. Bush's War on Terrorism and his reach of power, along with a whole host of other problems, I would rethink that assessment.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #72
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

    Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

    Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

    And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.
    You're using Party as the determining factor, but American political parties, while ideological, evolve through time and do not necessarily represent one conception of politics from one generation to the next. In essence, they are nearly empty houses with which you fill up the demographics. Try to consider the Democratic-Republican Party after the War of 1812. If we were to hold up the notion that Parties are this ahistorical, why on earth would they have adopted so many of the Federalist platforms (which eventually lead to the national death of the Federalist Party), and then go back again, and then do it once more?

    Ideas matter more for this kind of counter-factual analysis.

    When using Jefferson, you ignore his incredibly small-government, no deficit spending, amendment to the Constitution for new powers, minimalist military viewpoints. When you consider those viewpoints, where does Jefferson fall?

    And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.
    Perhaps, but then consider other matters. When it comes to who should have political power, what did John Adams think? Could you honestly see a Republican, who currently has to flatter the populists, being able to do so with those expressed viewpoints? Would he appreciate members of his own Party regularly attacking the Supreme Court, because of "activist judges"? To what extent would his big government tendencies feel at home with the Republican Party, to what extent would they not? Does John Adams' monarchistic viewpoint of political parties have something to add to this analysis? If the man was convinced he needed the best minds from anywhere, regardless of Party, and he himself felt almost no loyalty to the Party to which he belonged (unlike Jefferson), does this put a dent in your approach?
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-17-12 at 03:46 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #73
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by shiang View Post
    which ones? They weren't in the same party to begin with.

    Washington - independent, he was specifically against parties.
    Adams - republican
    Jefferson - democrat
    Madison - democrat

    Random guesses to be honest except for Washington.
    I would pretty much agree with all of those, but James Madison. But then again, James Madison was a hard person to predict. He was one of the leaders of the Federalist movement, yet he also was a supporter of Jefferson and his Democratic-Republican Party. So he would probably be like a Joe Lieberman today. Mostly follow one party, but also have no problems with walking away from them and going on his own.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  4. #74
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You're using Party as the determining factor, but American political parties, while ideological, evolve through time and do not necessarily represent one conception of politics from one generation to the next.
    No, you are trying to make 200 year old dead politicians fit into conventional parties. And that simply does not work. That is why I am pretty much laughing at all of this conceit.

    I think the founders would have rejected all conventional parties. They would be horrified at the hugely bloated government that we have today. Where huge amounts of taxes are collected, then redistributed down to others. They would probably support a program along the lines of taking all of the urban poor and unemployed, giving them a chunk of BLM land and make them farmers so they could support themselves instead of being a drain on the taxpayers. Make them independent and able to take care of themselves.

    Here is an example of somebody who was a lot closer to the "Founding Fathers" then we are. And he is now famous for standing what he saw as the "excesses of Government spending".

    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  5. #75
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    No, you are trying to make 200 year old dead politicians fit into conventional parties. And that simply does not work. That is why I am pretty much laughing at all of this conceit.
    The entire exercise is that. You're doing it just as readily as the others.

    I think the founders would have rejected all conventional parties.
    Why? They contributed to its development and essentially created them.

    They would be horrified at the hugely bloated government that we have today.
    And why is that? The belief that the Founding Fathers represented "small government"?

    Where huge amounts of taxes are collected, then redistributed down to others. They would probably support a program along the lines of taking all of the urban poor and unemployed, giving them a chunk of BLM land and make them farmers so they could support themselves instead of being a drain on the taxpayers. Make them independent and able to take care of themselves.
    Do you have actual policy evidence of this?


    Here is an example of somebody who was a lot closer to the "Founding Fathers" then we are. And he is now famous for standing what he saw as the "excesses of Government spending".
    A youtube video about Davy Crockett. Come on, man.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  6. #76
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    A youtube video about Davy Crockett. Come on, man.
    You are missing the point of it. Back then, taxes were pretty much non-existant. And "Government Handouts" were also non-existant. I think the Founding Fathers would reject both parties, and demand that things go back to how it was when they created the system. No welfare, no large taxation, no foreign aid, no standing Army or Navy, a giant closed society, let everybody else go to hell.

    Think of a Republic, very much like North Korea.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  7. #77
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    You are missing the point of it. Back then, taxes were pretty much non-existant. And "Government Handouts" were also non-existant. I think the Founding Fathers would reject both parties, and demand that things go back to how it was when they created the system. No welfare, no large taxation, no foreign aid, no standing Army or Navy, a giant closed society, let everybody else go to hell.

    Think of a Republic, very much like North Korea.
    I have no idea where you are getting these notions, aside from popular imagination.

    The largest branch of the Federalist party wanted a standing army. Many had no problem with large taxation (aside from the obvious political battles that lay ahead), they hadn't yet conceived of the welfare state (making that an exercise of complications, but a worthwhile one), many wanted federal aide in one form or another for either the French or the British, many didn't want a "giant closed society."
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  8. #78
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I think we easily established that they would be libertarians.
    I doubt it.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #79
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I doubt it.
    I think a few of them might have been. Sam Adams and Thomas Jefferson for example.

    But most would likely have been Republicans or Democrats. The splits were already there, more then evident simply by looking at the debates over the Constitution, and the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Those two groups were the foundations of our modern political parties.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    I think a few of them might have been. Sam Adams and Thomas Jefferson for example.

    But most would likely have been Republicans or Democrats. The splits were already there, more then evident simply by looking at the debates over the Constitution, and the Federalists and Anti-Federalists. Those two groups were the foundations of our modern political parties.
    Maybe after awhile if they had had a few years to study up on things and get used to the way things were in the country now.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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