View Poll Results: What political party do you think most of the Founding Fathers would join?

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  • Democrat

    14 11.38%
  • Republican

    25 20.33%
  • Libertarian

    62 50.41%
  • Green

    0 0%
  • Other

    22 17.89%
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Thread: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members of?

  1. #61
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Depends. Some of them would wonder why there is not a National University, and why so many trust in the common people.
    I wonder. I would think that the majority would question why/how we'd drifted so far back towards centraliztion of power. I'm thinking that Jefferson probably wouldn't be awfully excited over the trend.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If I am reading this right, this seems to be a bit of..a problem. You aren't focusing on their ideas so much as the Party to which they belonged.
    The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

    Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

    Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

    And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  3. #63
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    The ideas really mean very little, because they change over the years.

    Heck, quite a few people over the years have compared such Statesmen as John Adams and that he would have been a Republican, and Thomas Jefferson, who they say would have been a Democrat. And if you follow the history of the modern parties, that is exactly what they would have been.

    Do not get so wrapped up in trying to nit-pick details, and loose sight of what these people's general beliefs were. Thomas Jefferson, life-long radical who favored constant revolts and renewing the tree of liberty in blood. Look at things today, does that sound more like Democrats or Republicans?

    And John Adams, who favored trying to keep the best of British policies, only changing what was needed. Who believed that it was best after the Revolution to try and make a lasting peace with England. That sounds very much like the much more Conservative Republican approach to matters.
    Since some seem to believe that the Founders were more akin to our modern "Progressives"........I'd like to pose this question: How would the majority of our Founders view modern taxation.....including income, property, Social Security and unemployment taxes?

    If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretences for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey, and permits none to escape without a tribute.
    Thomas Paine (The Rights of Man, 1791)(Dedicated to George Washington)
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  4. #64
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Since some seem to believe that the Founders were more akin to our modern "Progressives"........I'd like to pose this question: How would the majority of our Founders view modern taxation.....including income, property, Social Security and unemployment taxes?
    Well, if you are going by specific topics like that (as opposed to more general philosophies), then in that time and era, all of them would have been strongly opposed. Remember, a lot of the anger of the Revolution dealt with taxes, and the belief that the Government was taking to much power into itself at the expense of the people. Of course, this was also an era very different from our own. By far, most people lived an agrarian lifestyle, and lived off of the land.

    Today, the world is much different. And if anybody is honest, they would admit that the beliefs of the 18th and 19th centuries would not work in the modern world. Isolationism was well and good, when travel between Continents took weeks or months. It is not very realistic when it is now a matter of hours. And likely Jefferson would have changed his belief in "excessive taxation" when faced with the fact that millions would starve without things like welfare because they simply can't grow or hunt their own food like they could 100 years ago.

    Trying to put either antiquated beliefs into modern beliefs, or modern beliefs onto historical figures is very disingenuous. But the core beliefs of these individuals would likely have followed along the path of the parties that followed the ones they belonged in. It is much how I laugh when I hear modern Liberals talk about how Jack Kennedy would embrace their beliefs. All the while ignoring the fact that Jack Kennedy was a Conservative Democrat who dispised "Liberals" (do not confuse JFK the Presidental Candidate with JFK the man, he supported Senator McCarthy, was best friends with Richard Nixon, and stated publicly that he would have supported Nixon if he had not gotten the Demicratic nomination in 1960).

    Remember, JFK was one of the strongest supporters of Senator McCarthy, and never denounced him. He frequently spoke out against Ike, stating that he was not hard enough against Communists. He escalated the conflict in Vietnam, made a firm stance against the Soviets in the Cuban Missile Crisis, supported Civil Rights (when it was considered to be a "Conservative Issue", rejected by most Democrats), invaded Cuba in the "Bay of Pigs" incident, followed a "trickle down" tax policy, giving tax breaks to businesses to stimulate the economy, and was considered to be very "Pro Business". Yet today, it is the Liberals who claim he would have supported them. This is an example of trying to take a person and their beliefs, and molding it dishonestly to fit modern ideals.

    Other then maybe individuals like Thomas Jefferson, who would now be a wild and crazy Right Wing Libertarian, who more then likely would support the Occupy movement because it would give the Tree of Liberty the blood it so desperately needs. And to take even more modern individuals, JFK would likely have been a Republican, and Richard Nixon would have been a Democrat. Because in the modern parties, there is no room in the Democrats for a Conservative, and no room in the Republicans for a Liberal.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  5. #65
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would they be members of?

    As is would be easily expected, societies change over time. In America we no longer have slavery. We honor the heritage of the Native Americans. We pay taxes in more ways than we can count on our fingers; federal income, SS, inheritance, state income, state sales, capital gains, special taxes on alcohol and tobacco, etc. We have public state operated schools where Christianity is banned except under certain conditions and I could go on.

    In reading up on the Founding Fathers I often ask myself which political party would they most likely join and why. What do you think?
    which ones? They weren't in the same party to begin with.

    Washington - independent, he was specifically against parties.
    Adams - republican
    Jefferson - democrat
    Madison - democrat

    Random guesses to be honest except for Washington.
    One learns more by listening than talking.

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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    They'd probably have trouble identifying with any of the major political parties. There's just too much difference between the America they lived in and the America of today.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Hey! I like Ike also.

    I'm not only not a constitutional scholar, I don't think I've ever read it. Just like others who are equally ignorant, I think I know enough about it to sense that it has been modified beyond recognition and the "blueprint" seems to be more about the whatever it looked like about 50 years ago. We've done great on freedom of speech but a lot of other areas are pretty modified any more.

    I'm probably wrong
    Well if you don't know whats in the blueprint, how do you know if its right or wrong?

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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    They'd probably have trouble identifying with any of the major political parties. There's just too much difference between the America they lived in and the America of today.
    I think we easily established that they would be libertarians.

  9. #69
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    I didn't say anything about right or wrong.

    I only said that it was dated and heavily modified over time.

    Have you studied the Constitution or are you just familiar with its contents over time?



    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Well if you don't know whats in the blueprint, how do you know if its right or wrong?

  10. #70
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    Re: If the Founding Fathers were alive today, what party would most they be members o

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    I wonder. I would think that the majority would question why/how we'd drifted so far back towards centraliztion of power. I'm thinking that Jefferson probably wouldn't be awfully excited over the trend.
    It depends. You have to consider that there was a large gulf between what Jefferson and his Democratic-Republicans wanted and what Hamilton, Washington, and Adams wanted in the Federalist Party. In some respects, sure they could very well be surprised at domestic spending efforts concentrated at the federal level. On the other hand, maybe the surprise will be in not what we give to the Federal government. We are far more democratic, far less deferential to federal authority than many would necessarily like in many other respects.

    In essence, Libertarians will find things they like out of Hamilton, but find many more things they absolutely cannot adhere to. They may like some things from Adams, but be turned off on many other matters. Washington's Farewell address receives a glossing over, with everyone only focusing on one small portion of his foreign policy...but little else. I don't anticipate Republicans, Democrats, or Libertarians rushing to the defense of an obviously elitist viewpoint of the Federalists. I know small-government conservatives won't exactly be thrilled at the concept that Alexander Hamilton was about as antithetical as one could get to limited government power. Or that stoic, Cincinnatus fan George Washington, would propose National projects which haven't been promoted since John Quincy Adams, because of the small-government mentality that had been an adversary then and now.

    It's understandable that people want the Founding generation to agree with them in the present. Everyone does. Nevertheless, there's a really quick problem that surfaces: most are difficult to place in the current era and maybe you wouldn't want to, because their political philosophies have been tremendously different from what Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians conceive.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-17-12 at 03:17 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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