View Poll Results: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?

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  • Yes, civil unions are an acceptable compromise.

    17 16.19%
  • No, they are not, because:

    55 52.38%
  • The government should not be involved with marriage, at all.

    25 23.81%
  • Other (Please Explain)

    8 7.62%
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Thread: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    how about incest and polygamy? since we are rewriting the laws defining marriage...why not give those consenting adults the same rights everyone else has?
    That isn't how the legal system works. The cases on the court docket involve gender restrictions, not the number of parties, and familial relation.

    Those would have to go to court and be heard on their own merits.
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfsgirl View Post
    That isn't how the legal system works. The cases on the court docket involve gender restrictions, not the number of parties, and familial relation.

    Those would have to go to court and be heard on their own merits.
    I fully realize that those instances would be separate legal issues...but that is not what I asked


    assuming you support gay marriage, on what grounds would you oppose incestual or polygamy marriages?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    how about incest and polygamy? since we are rewriting the laws defining marriage...why not give those consenting adults the same rights everyone else has?
    This is another part of the problem. We are not "rewriting laws defining marriage". We are rewriting laws restricting who can enter into marriage. There is a difference. Who can enter into marriage does not define what marriage is. How marriage works defines what marriage is. Marriage as a legal contract is remaining completely the same in how it operates.

    Marriage is still about stable, intimate, adult relationships in which the laws are granting certain rights of kinship and more specifically giving closest next of kin status to an intimate partner, since this takes away the need for a lot of paperwork to do the same thing. Many of the benefits of marriage comes from the fact that the vast majority of intimate partners build their lives together by deciding what each person will do to contribute to helping each other and go through life together. The vast majority of those getting married, particularly legally married, do so with the intention to stay together til one of them dies.

    Intimate relationships between close family relations are not desirable and for the most part not legal. We have plenty of data to back up a true concern for genetic and/or behavior issues in children that result from these relations. In addition, many of such relationships start, at least to be encouraged, prior to age of consent. This brings up a question of undue influence in these relationships that does not exist for the vast majority of normal couples who get married.

    Polygamy has nothing to do with the relationship but rather to do with the way legal marriage operates as a contract. Medical decision making for a spouse is granted with marriage. Outside of marriage, this is granted with a medical power of attorney. A person is only allowed to designate one person as their medical decision maker outside of marriage. There is also the issue that many people do, even without it being legal, abuse plural marriage as a way to oppress women and/or ostracize young men because it becomes one man with many wives which creates a shortage of women for other men and treats women as less than their husband. Many marriage laws would have to be changed to accommodate multiple spouses for very little benefit to society itself, not when we do consider the sexes in marriage equal. Any plural marriages would have to be agreements between all spouses, not just one person having multiple spouses in order to ensure that everyone is aware of the situation, since a major part of marriage now is protection in case of a breakup of the marriage. I'm not even against allowing a form of legal marriage that applies to people wanting multiple spouses in one big marriage. I just know that such a thing will not work with the way marriage operates right now. And the issue does not have to do with same sex couples being allowed to marry, anymore than it had to do with interracial couples being allowed to marry.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    This is another part of the problem. We are not "rewriting laws defining marriage". We are rewriting laws restricting who can enter into marriage. There is a difference. Who can enter into marriage does not define what marriage is. How marriage works defines what marriage is. Marriage as a legal contract is remaining completely the same in how it operates.

    Marriage is still about stable, intimate, adult relationships in which the laws are granting certain rights of kinship and more specifically giving closest next of kin status to an intimate partner, since this takes away the need for a lot of paperwork to do the same thing. Many of the benefits of marriage comes from the fact that the vast majority of intimate partners build their lives together by deciding what each person will do to contribute to helping each other and go through life together. The vast majority of those getting married, particularly legally married, do so with the intention to stay together til one of them dies.

    Intimate relationships between close family relations are not desirable and for the most part not legal. We have plenty of data to back up a true concern for genetic and/or behavior issues in children that result from these relations. In addition, many of such relationships start, at least to be encouraged, prior to age of consent. This brings up a question of undue influence in these relationships that does not exist for the vast majority of normal couples who get married.

    Polygamy has nothing to do with the relationship but rather to do with the way legal marriage operates as a contract. Medical decision making for a spouse is granted with marriage. Outside of marriage, this is granted with a medical power of attorney. A person is only allowed to designate one person as their medical decision maker outside of marriage. There is also the issue that many people do, even without it being legal, abuse plural marriage as a way to oppress women and/or ostracize young men because it becomes one man with many wives which creates a shortage of women for other men and treats women as less than their husband. Many marriage laws would have to be changed to accommodate multiple spouses for very little benefit to society itself, not when we do consider the sexes in marriage equal. Any plural marriages would have to be agreements between all spouses, not just one person having multiple spouses in order to ensure that everyone is aware of the situation, since a major part of marriage now is protection in case of a breakup of the marriage. I'm not even against allowing a form of legal marriage that applies to people wanting multiple spouses in one big marriage. I just know that such a thing will not work with the way marriage operates right now. And the issue does not have to do with same sex couples being allowed to marry, anymore than it had to do with interracial couples being allowed to marry.

    i just asked because I have encountered numerous pro-gay marriage people who find incest and/or polygamy morally unacceptable.
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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I fully realize that those instances would be separate legal issues...but that is not what I asked


    assuming you support gay marriage, on what grounds would you oppose incestual or polygamy marriages?
    I don't oppose polygamy, but the current marriage laws would need to be refined to fit more than one person.

    The only problem I have with incest is coercion, the genetic issues, and the grooming of children to marry a parent, or older sibling.

    Personally, not my cup of tea, but to each their own.
    " May you live as long as you wish, and love as long as you live"
    R.A. Heinlein

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    suppose all current law said marriage was between one man and one woman. the proposed compromise would require a second set of laws that said civil union was between two consenting adults. what gays want would require rewriting current law to say marriage is between two consenting adults.

    in either case new laws must be written or old laws rewritten/ammended. the only difference is that under the "compromise" there would basically be two sets of almost identical laws on the books. other than being a bit cumbersome, where is the big difference?
    A small rewrite of a law is much less than creating a whole new set of laws. Your imaginary, unrealistic scenario designed to try and get the response you want still does not work.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and with many current laws banning gay marriage of any kind.....why is there a need for anti-gays to compromise?
    Because of the shift in public sentiment and the weight of court rulings against SSM limitations.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A small rewrite of a law is much less than creating a whole new set of laws. Your imaginary, unrealistic scenario designed to try and get the response you want still does not work.
    unlike you, i only want an honest answer to an honest question. but hey....thanks for playing
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    how about incest and polygamy? since we are rewriting the laws defining marriage...why not give those consenting adults the same rights everyone else has?
    When in doubt, break out slippery slope arguments. Hint: from a legal standpoint the state can show at least some level of interest in limiting both incest and polygamy. SSM, not so much.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Because of the shift in public sentiment and the weight of court rulings against SSM limitations.
    so why not just put it to a national vote and let the people decide?

    oh yeah, that's right, because atm you wouldn't get the answer you are looking for
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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